I have posted about this quite a few months ago and the problem for me is continuing and getting worse.
I hope to be able to tell the whole story here some time, but can't do that now.
One of the problems I have is that my premis ---
"Only a judge can determine property line. Professional Surveyors offer professional opinions as to what a judge would rule. A survey drawing is an expression of that opinion. The government's agent may have a different opinion, but has an obligation to record the Professional Surveyor's Drawing."
--- is not universally accepted.
I think every surveyor I have talked to, here and elsewhere, agrees with this, but lawyers generally do not. They seem to think of the government's Public Surveyor as something like a building inspector who has the right and obligation to enforce laws as he understands them.
The only reference I have found on this is in my 1986 "Boundary Control and Legal Principals" by Brown Robbillard and Wilson. Page 6 1.5.
Courts Role in Title Rights. The initial method of conveyancing land and the rights granted are regulated by the Legislature of a government. After a conveyance has been made, however, the courts have the exclusive right to determine the meaning and intent of the words used,the rights confered, and the location of the land described in the written document or instrument.
In the past legislatures have granted certain departments of governments or county surveyors the final authority for determining the boundaries of land. Such laws have since been declared unconstitutional...
If anyone has another reference supporting or for that matter opposing my view, I would like to know.
Thanks, Larry Best
I would think that your answer is going to lie in the laws governing surveying in the Virgin Islands rather than references that would be contained in a generalist textbook like Brown.
Only 15 states have recording statutes and Oklahoma isn't one of them (CCR's notwithstanding). Of those that do, many, such as Washington, don't review submitted maps at all. Oregon's County Surveyors do, and the process is governed, in part, by ORS 209.250(4):
(a) Within 30 days of receiving a permanent map under this section, the county surveyor shall review the map to determine if it complies with subsections (1), (2) and (3) of this section and applicable local ordinances. A map must be indexed by the county surveyor within 30 days following a determination that the map is in compliance with this section. A survey prepared by the county surveyor in an official or private capacity must comply with subsections (1), (2) and (3) of this section.
(b) A survey map found not to be in compliance with subsection (1), (2) or (3) of this section must be returned within 30 days of receipt for correction to the surveyor who prepared the map. The surveyor shall return the corrected survey map to the county surveyor within 30 days of receipt of the survey map from the county surveyor.
(c) A map that is not corrected within the specified time period must be forwarded to the State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying for action, as provided in subsection (11) of this section.
(d) An action may not be maintained against the county surveyor for recording a survey map that does not comply with this section.
(e) An action may not be maintained against the county surveyor for refusal to file a survey map that does not comply with this section.
Larry:
Just because a surveyor surveys a disputed line after the judge rules,
does not mean the surveyor got it right. For most of the boundary disputes
that I have seen settled, the judge rules but does not tell the surveyor
how to survey according to his liking.
Norm:
I am sure that your BOR hunts down a bunch of surveyors for not filing
corner records, but the BOR members' survey crews are busy setting PK nails
at the intersection of painted stripes near section corners. One of your
board members and the OK BOR investigator are employees of one of the
largest survey brokers in the country. Corruption prevails!!!
Thanks, Norman,
I think there may be no case law concerning recording surveys. I certainly accept requirements concerning creation of new lots or R.O.W.s, drafting standards, parcel numbering and the like, even if it isn't written down anywhere, but maps are rejected here based on "that property line is in the wrong place. you need to move it over here". I recently had a survey I recorded 6 years ago pulled out and I was told "This survey is wrong. You must change this. If you don't change this, I will change it for you." In this instance I was able to prevent him from changing my survey only through hiring an atty., but me being right and him being wrong isn't even the point. I think the system is working illegally.
Paul,
I am sure that your BOR hunts down a bunch of surveyors for not filing
corner records
Paul,
It's worse than that. The board is "architects, Engineers and Land Surveyors" I don't think there has ever been a surveyor on the board. I dont think they have ever taken any action against a surveyor except for not paying his registration fee.
The public surveyors right to reject my surveys is nearly putting me out of business.
I need a way to stop this practice.
> Norm:
>
> I am sure that your BOR hunts down a bunch of surveyors for not filing
> corner records, but the BOR members' survey crews are busy setting PK nails
> at the intersection of painted stripes near section corners. One of your
> board members and the OK BOR investigator are employees of one of the
> largest survey brokers in the country. Corruption prevails!!!
Actually 2 board members work for Smith Roberts, but Mr. Pitts hasn't worked for them for several years. We can all thank one of our worst governors in recent history for the public member who works for SR National. IMO, Mr Henry was and is a weasel and appointed one of his "Frat Brat" fraternity brothers, Mark Fuller.:-@ Prior to working for SR National, Mr. Fuller worked for one of the iterations of ILS, Inc., one of the lowest of the low scum sucking bottom dwellers of the survey brokers(that is my nice version). :{::}: I am not sure which governor appointed Mr Smith.
One of the worst mistakes Oklahoma made was when they changed the constitution to allow governors to serve consecutive terms.
Larry,
I'm not sure how the laws work in the territories of the US, whether they have territorial statutes similar to state statutes. If so, have you looked at those which cover the practice of surveying and those which cover the duties of the public surveyor?
In most states with recording laws, I believe that the laws pertaining to the recording of records of surveys will be with the practice statutes (as they are here in CA), but they may be with those covering the duties of the public surveyor.
One of those should outline the level of review by, and may address the limits of authority of the public surveyor.
I have issues with that opinion expressed in Brown, but won't get into it in this thread as it isn't really germane as to whether the public surveyor has the right to reject your maps on grounds of the philosophy of surveying practice, unless the statutes give him such authority.
Suppose I survey a boundary, set my monuments, and file a survey. Nothing stops another surveyor from surveying the same property six years later and placing the boundary in a different place. He has his opinion, I have mine. If the "Public Surveyor" marks up your map, that is his responsibility, is it not? You cannot be made responsible for the changes he makes, can you? That they are hand drawn changes should be evident to future users of the map. Why not say, "go ahead and make your change, just add a note saying it's your change."
I do understand how you would feel - personally - about this sort of thing, but, practically, should you really lose sleep over this?
There must be some statute governing this Public Surveyors Office and it's responsibilities.
[sarcasm]BTW, googling the Virgin Islands Public Surveyor's website suggests that english is not a first language. At least, I hope that's what causes that.[/sarcasm]
> Norm:
> I am sure that your BOR hunts down a bunch of surveyors for not filing
> corner records, but the BOR members' survey crews are busy setting PK nails
> at the intersection of painted stripes near section corners. One of your
> board members and the OK BOR investigator are employees of one of the
> largest survey brokers in the country. Corruption prevails!!!
There are certainly way more nails marking section corners than there are CCRs.
I support Mr. Johnson's comments, they are spot on. I am not certain Mr. Pitts has ever been to the field, if so it was left field. :-/
Are you sure Mark Fuller worked for SR? My inside guy who attends various
OK BOR meetings, says Mark Fuller is a low-life and bad-mouths SR. I figured Fuller worked for the competition. I know a couple of good OK surveyors who left Oklahoma.
The OK BOR, aka a couple members, hunted down the two surveyors and made them
come back to OKC to surrender their licenses in person. If they didn't come back,
then would get arbitrarly huge fines also.
Like our Supreme Court, the OK BOR uses other states laws in OK's jurisdiction.
They have dinged a bunch of surveyors by cutting the PDH hours from Red Vector
and PDH online. I thought that was a Tennessee law -- correspondence courses
get 1/4 the credit. People on this board complain about dual licensees don't
know flip about land surveying. Supposedly that is the case in Oklahoma.
> Are you sure Mark Fuller worked for SR? My inside guy who attends various
> OK BOR meetings, says Mark Fuller is a low-life and bad-mouths SR. I figured Fuller worked for the competition. I know a couple of good OK surveyors who left Oklahoma.
> The OK BOR, aka a couple members, hunted down the two surveyors and made them
> come back to OKC to surrender their licenses in person. If they didn't come back,
> then would get arbitrarly huge fines also.
>
> Like our Supreme Court, the OK BOR uses other states laws in OK's jurisdiction.
> They have dinged a bunch of surveyors by cutting the PDH hours from Red Vector
> and PDH online. I thought that was a Tennessee law -- correspondence courses
> get 1/4 the credit. People on this board complain about dual licensees don't
> know flip about land surveying. Supposedly that is the case in Oklahoma.
Directly from the Oklahoma Board current website:
Mark Fuller, Public Member
Smith Roberts National Corp.
100 NE 5th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73104
(405) 488-3341
Methinks you need a better source.
So let me get this straight, someone in the government won't record your survey because he doesn't like it? By not liking it, I don't mean he thinks you use a lousy font, but he doesn't like the way you did it and doesn't agree with the results? Does this guy have a boss you can appeal to? It seems like he should record your stuff, unless your not meeting standards, like forgeting a north arrow.
David,
It's for various reasons, including that the property lines are in the wrong place. I'm trying to establish that he has no legal right to do that. I'm working on getting a meeting with his boss and old friend, the Lieutenent Governor, but other surveyors have tried this and failed.
Hi Larry
I’m a Danish land surveyor graduate student and I’m currently doing an internship at a land surveyor company on St. Croix (which I’m doing from mid-September to December) as a part of my master degree. The purpose of my internship is to analyze the land administration system on USVI and based on that make a project with my conclusions.
The things you write about the public surveyor are therefore extremely interesting and relevant to my investigation and analyze. The company where I’m doing my internship has had similar issues with the public surveyor. What I want to say with all this is, that if you can find the time, I would really appreciate if you would answer some questions about the public surveyor and how his behavior affects your job, what your experiences are with the way he’s handling his duties etc.
Best regards,
Cecilie
