Public RW - Follow County Engineers Footsteps or Deed Desc?

For those of you who don't know Mark, he is an excellent land surveyor who pays attention to the details, hence the question.

I sort of don't like "closing corners" in philosophy. Since the closing corners were set on the original senior line, why would they "move"? So when the Grantors "examined" the line of survey with the closing corners intact, they were examining the township line in essence. The only difference between a junior 1/16th corner and a junior "closing corner" is that for some reason the BLM decided that a section line bends through a junior sixteenth corner, and doesn't bend through a closing corner.

Enough of my criticism of closing corners. My answer is that the township line, as described in the description, is the line. Go from "senior-line" corner to senior-line corner and have the deeded line jog through those senior corners.

Just my thoughts on the topic.

Is the road constructed, fenced, occupied and had utilities installed in the ROW. How long has it been. From what you've already stated I'd probably go with the survey line by the county engineer. With what they DID and accepted at the time.

Now if this is just some open land and the road has never been built I might look at it a bit different. There wouldn't be any harm done by correcting the survey.

The road is improved and utilities do exist withing the right of way. There are no fences in the portion I am surveying. Yet there exists a pin cushion of monuments set in the area with some surveyors holding the closing corner centerline and others holding the actual Section/Township/Range lines. The one particular closing corner I am concerned with is 6 feet east of a range line.

My thought is that the County Engineer was instructed to lay out the line, and did. The road was built based upon his stake-out and therefore I would hold his record. especially since the line was field staked and owners were shown that line.

After further thought, I would be attempting to find the reason for the shift from the Township Line to Closing Corners. Should only be two Closing Corners to worry about, the NE and The NW CC of Section 6, then choosing where the intended change was to take place, an abrupt shift at the end of the called Township line or to transition a mile back, should only be 2 closing corners for each section. Then, what did Statute say at the time about the location of the C/L of roads along Section Lines. Whatever you choose, explain in your narrative the reasoning behind your choice and move on, if a Recording State, those who follow would know what and why you did what you did, then would have the burden to prove you wrong if they choose to disagree with your solution.
jud

Right-of-way can be a funny beast at times. On one hand, it is good to have such a well prepared and documented description. On the other hand, from what I understand of your post, every surveyor in the county has his junk stuck in the ground out there. Probably not a good thing; which ever way you go, you're going to be contradictory with someone else.

My sentiment would be to "retrace" the County Engineer's survey as precise as I could. At least you've got that to hang your hat on.

With R/W conflicts around Oklahoma, when and if it gets to a litigious level, the courts have a tendency to rule toward what was originally occupied and construed, rather than someone's modern and literal translation.

my $ 0.02

Have you talked with J.O.? He did considerable study of this very problem a year or two ago.

Well, a better way to phrase the question:

Do you follow the plan or do you follow what they actually did after all was said and done?

Which one better indicates the intention of the parties? One or more preliminary maps, writings, reports, discussions; or a review and acceptance of a final map and stakes set in the ground?

> My thought is that the County Engineer was instructed to lay out the line, and did. The road was built based upon his stake-out and therefore I would hold his record. especially since the line was field staked and owners were shown that line.

I would tend to agree since the statement
>the Grantors "examined the line of survey" prior to their signing the deeds and prior to the recording of the Road Map.
documents the intent of the grantors.

However, I would also document all the monuments the centerline as staked and the actual Section/Township/Range lines. All survey documents, descriptions and maps, should also note both lines and that the staked centerline is the line agreed to by the grantors. Make the problem and the reason for your solution very clear in all your documents.

You are performing a resurvey. Find the relevant evidence. Follow the footsteps.

The statement that the grantors viewed and accepted what was laid out in the field is key. Remember why monuments usually control? It is because the monuments are presumed to have been viewed and accepted by the parties, which in this case, there is evidence supporting the presumption. They are the physical manifestation of the intent.

Your major problem may be finding the same centerline and/or right of way monuments that were originally found/laid out and honored. Maybe the most dependable monument is the road itself. Just because it is a road, doesn't mean boundary law goes out the window. Original intent is usually found on the ground, not in the recorders vault

You are lucky - most roads we deal with don't have any record of how they were created. At least your county followed a good procedure when opening the road.

Yes Steve, J.O. and a host of others are having a great discussion regarding the Tangerine Road dedication. It is proving to be an interesting debate. So many others have chosen to go the way of holding the written word versus the line actually run. I myself favor the line actually run. Especially since the line was viewed prior to the Grantor/s signing the vesting deeds. If that qualifying statement had not been on the face of the deed, the situation would be a bit more difficult. Couple that "reviewed the line of survey" with the County Engineers field notes and I believe holding the line as originally run is the answer. However, I am not so arrogant as to do so without first consulting with our peers. I am certain that you would NOT be surprised at the varied responses.

Sounds to me like you know the answer.

Public RW - Follow County Engineers Footsteps

It appears that Burg may have assumed that the Closing Corner monuments were on the Township line and so thought that he was properly running that line.

In any case, you have a statement that the landowners viewed the line as surveyed prior to accepting the deal. If the basic principle of finding the lines and points as they were originally established in the survey you're retracing doesn't give enough comfort, that statement should give you planty of comfort to hang your hat on that course of action.

Unless you have some record that the line was corrected very shortly after the Burg survey, and that the road was built to the corrected alignment rather than the Burg alignment, I believe that you have no supportable option other than to re-establish the line as Burg first established it and as the landowners (and presumably the County officials) viewed it prior to approving the RW and executing the RW deeds.

I've been in this game for a while and as I've matured professionally, I find myself generally against determining the line to be where it is a certain position a great distance away from another position as opposed to an earlier surveyor's initial marking of said position. The first way leads to illogical results that can never achieve certainty and can never be self-evident to land owners. The seconed way much more fully conforms to the goals of real property law that deals with boundary line determinations, and while subject to great imperfections, affords certainty and self-evidentiary qualities and thus makes those imperfections... well, perfect.

Stephen

Public RW - Follow County Engineers Footsteps

Thanks for the response. Actually, the current Pima County Land Surveyor is looking for any additional notes to be found in the file regarding any County surveying activity along that corridor after Burg first surveyed it. Frankly, I doubt he will find anything. At least he is looking into that for me! Prior to my posting, I was nearly finished with the mapping of my survey. My survey accepts the original line run by Burg. However, I am making it perfectly clear that other surveyors have not. There are no fences or other signs occupation/possession to deal with. And, there are additional takes that impact the right of way as well. I simply wanted to start with the first issue before goin on to the next!

You Have An Existing Road, But How Many Original Monuments ?

The first assumption is the road is where it has always been.

I assume that both original corners and closing corners exist within the right of way.

How close are they to any line?

Is either set of monuments in greater agreement to the physical road?

Without that information everything else is rather useless speculation.

BTW, have the closing corners ever been readjusted to the township line?

Paul in PA

I was fairly set in my mind as to the correct action to take in this instance. However, since many others took a different path, I decided to ask a few of my local peers about the situation prior to publication of my results. I thank Bruce Small for recommending the link to this site. Having additional input is always good for discussion and for the file.

You Have An Existing Road, But How Many Original Monuments ?

The deed was for r/w correct? i.e. deed of easment? deed of r/w? what kind of document is it?

If the recorded document is for a easement or right of way it will go where the county engineer laid out the road and viewed by the landowners and accepted.

The recorded document, layout of the road etc. does not change the senior line.

Last case I was involved in the judge stated "Gentlemen, where the road is, is where it is"...."we are not going to be moving roads around just because they don't fit the legal description". This did pertain to a long time (50 years) established road.

Pablo B-)