A surveyor buddies up to a certain title company, realtor, or lenders and tell them that if they will send him work exclusively he will in turn, do their jobs cheaper than it can be had from other surveyors. In other words, special fee rates.
Does anyone have a issue with that business approach. I think its organized "lowballing".
Please comment.
John Harmon
"Please comment."
Seriously!???
That is an issue that you can report to the Board of Title Examiners.
Sounds like organized crime.
0.02
> A surveyor buddies up to a certain title company, realtor, or lenders and tell them that if they will send him work exclusively he will in turn, do their jobs cheaper than it can be had from other surveyors. In other words, special fee rates.
> Does anyone have a issue with that business approach. I think its organized "lowballing".
> Please comment.
>
> John Harmon
In Ohio I believe the following portion of the Ohio Administrative Code would apply.
>4733-35-06 Solicitation of employment.
>(A) The engineer or surveyor shall not pay, solicit nor offer, directly or indirectly, any bribe or commission for professional employment with the exception of payment of the usual commission for securing salaried positions through licensed employment agencies.
>(B) The engineer or surveyor shall seek professional employment on the basis of qualifications and competence for proper accomplishment of the work.
>(C) The engineer or surveyor shall not falsify or permit misrepresentation of academic or professional qualifications and shall not misrepresent or exaggerate the degree of responsibility in or for the subject matter of prior assignments.
>(D) Brochures or other presentations incident to the solicitation of employment shall not misrepresent pertinent facts concerning employers, employees, associates, joint-ventures, or past accomplishments with the intent and purpose of enhancing qualifications and work.
>Effective: 11/24/2008
>R.C. 119.032 review dates: 08/18/2008 and 11/24/2013
>Promulgated Under: 119.03
>Statutory Authority: 4733.07
>Rule Amplifies: 4733.20
>Prior Effective Dates: 10-15-70; 11-1-78; 11-1-03
I agree with you, it's lowballing. A company that competes with my employer does the same thing. Flat rate mortgage surveys for $225 as long as it's 5 acres or less. We have to estimate twice that at least, unless it's updating one of our own recent surveys.
I assume they are losing money on them, or at least not making any profit. Either that or they will eventually get busted for sub-standard work.
Not sure what to tell you to do about it, because we haven't resolved that issue either. I'm one to try to handle matters without involving licensing boards or other authorities if possible. My take on this kind of thing is, turning them in is like calling a game warden on the hunting club next door. If you do it, the warden will be back next year checking to see what you are doing.
So how do they know if it's really cheaper than other surveyors. The only way is to find out what the others quote then tell the 'buddy' he has to be lower than the lowest by some number. It wouldn't take long for the others to figure out what was going on and stop offering to take work from the specific client. That then assures Mr. Lowballer than he will get the work no one else will touch.
For the sake of argument...
What's the difference in that scenario and one in which a firm merely hires a licensed surveyor as an employee? By agreement doesn't that employee agree to work for the employer at a predetermined rate?
BTW - I give my best clients all sorts of breaks on the billing. Somebody better turn me in to the BOR for being an attentive businessman...conduct unbecoming of a professional!
😉
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
since when is pricing a service an ethics issue? -- Really?
in the course of conducting my daily business - if I lose $300 that day or if I make $2000 after expenses - what business is it of yours, my other clients, my competitors or the state board?
Volume pricing is a reality.
Get over it.
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
The question is, "Why would a Title Company or any other agency conspire with a survey company to set the price of surveying or any other service that pass thru their doors?"
"Do it for this amount or you will not be given an opportunity to get the job". That is against the right of free enterprise.
Title companies serve a BOR with stringent guidelines the same as surveyors, they cannot afford to be biased. They can only refer to a list of all available companies offering their services.
What is next, will they only give out the names of the companies that follow fences and do not find and/or report any boundary problems.
Fees are to be arraigned with a client before the fact and not set at any amount to be expected or determined by or thru a third party.
BTW, most of us put up with someone on the other end of the phone working at one of these places that give out their recommendations daily for some lowballer.
:-O
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
Could be a violation of RESPA, that's Federal time...
Sec. 2607. Prohibition against kickbacks and unearned fees
(a) Business referrals
No person shall give and no person shall accept any fee, kickback,
or thing of value pursuant to any agreement or understanding, oral or
otherwise, that business incident to or a part of a real estate
settlement service involving a federally related mortgage loan shall be
referred to any person.
The thing of value is the promise of work. This also stops the practice of an attorney giving all his work to one surveyor but only paying on the one that actually close.
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
> since when is pricing a service an ethics issue? -- Really?
>
Probably ever since being a professional requires, well.............., professional behavior and professional business practices.
If we could only quit acting like the "worlds oldest profession", maybe we could be considered real professionals by the public. But, when we insist on walking like a duck, looking like a duck, valuing our services like a duck, then we must be "pro" ducks...............
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
I still don't get where you guys are coming from.
If want to do my work for nothing or for five dollars what difference does it make?
When a prospective client calls me and asks for a fee it may be $100 today and if another prospective client calls me tomorrow for a price on the same job my fee may be $200
If a builder calls me and tells me that he has 35 sites that needs to be laidout and asks for a volume discount, you're dang right I'm going to discount the bulk work instead of charging him what it would be if I priced the individual projects separately.
How is it any different than when a realtor calls and asks for a discount, because he is repeat client? It's the same thing for title companies
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
A couple of weeks after I get a Lab test done or I go to see my Physician, I get a letter from my insurance company showing how much the bill WAS, and how much the bill IS after the quantity discount waa applied to the insurance company's bill, and any balance due that I'm supposed to pay to the Physician or Lab.
If I did not have medical insurance, I'll bet that I would not be getting a discount because I'd be an individual and not part of a group that negotiates a quantity discount.
Physicians are professionals, why can't Surveyors give quantity discounts?
Business is business.
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
send him work exclusively
Re-read the original post. I think the above line is operative.
RESPA doesn't seem to consider volume.
It simply says you cannot do X for Y.
I would wager that most Licensees would be bound to adhere to RESPA by some paragrgh in their respective Board rules of counduct.
What prompted the post....
A bank ordered a survey on about 40 acres. My office worked it up, did the research, and set it up for field work to start.
Get a call from the bank saying that the title company has called them saying that only "their surveyor" is supposed to do it because according to the clerk at the title company, they have a surveyor that does their stuff because he gives them "reduced fees".
Keep in mind that the title company DOES NOT pay for the surveys. The surveying fee comes out of the transaction at closing.
So it sounds like the title company is using the "reduced fee" surveyor so as to gain favor with the parties to the closing. You know, like the realtors who shop around for a cheap surveying fees in order to look better with their clients.
It just seems a bit dirty to me.
By the way, the bank told the title company "take a hike", that it was going to be done by who it had already be working on it.
What prompted the post....
"So it sounds like the title company is using the "reduced fee" surveyor so as to gain favor with the parties to the closing. You know, like the realtors who shop around for a cheap surveying fees in order to look better with their clients."
I'm glad it worked out OK for you, but the Title Company is required by law not to exceed a good faith estimate, and if there is a cost over run, they may have to pay it out of their pockets. I've been told by a few in the lending/title business that new banking regulations require them to have a "short list" of service companies (surveyors, appraisers, inspectors, etc.) with known "standard" pricing ranges in order to give these good faith estimates. So it makes sense that they would have a good relationship and an understanding about prices with a local surveyor. I have a similar relationship with some title companies, bankers, realtors, etc. I call it "repeat clients", and I see it as the bread and butter of a reputable surveying firm. However, while I do have a general understanding about price and lot size, I've never asked that I be their exclusive surveyor, and I reserve the right to quote surveys individually and give discounts or price hikes as I see fit.
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
The promise of future work isn't worth 10 cents. A promise of future work is completely unrelated to only being paid for surveys that close.
I'm with Bob, I don't understand what all the caterwauling is about. I have a similiar agreement with a finance company to survey forclosed properties, only I didn't attempt to be the cheapest. Do I need to keep a lookout for Eric Holder's goons coming to lock me up?
since when is lowballing an ethics issue?
What the rule reads like (to me) is, you can't tell a person, "I'll give you personally $50 every time you send work to me."
I see no way to interpret it to prevent a volume discount pricing schedule, "We'll knock off xx% for any jobs after you spend $ YY per year with us".
There may be some rule that prohibits "ALL your company's business for my price", but that's not clear in the quoted words.
Another reason
I stay the hell away from title companies. They are not professional or honest...they're not even nice half the time.
While there will always be a need for land surveyors and the insight and wisdom that they provide; title companies need none of that...They are only looking for an "insured out" in their paper trail. And they love spending OPs money.
Color Me Skeptical
> I've been told by a few in the lending/title business that new banking regulations require them to have a "short list" of service companies (surveyors, appraisers, inspectors, etc.) with known "standard" pricing ranges in order to give these good faith estimates.
Here's what I think what this means: they're required by law to provide a good-faith estimate, but how they derive that estimate is not specified in the regs. They want a list of fixed-fee providers because it's convenient for them, not because it's required by law. They don't want to spend the time getting a site-specific estimate for every transaction, so they tell all the surveyors that they need a one-size-fits-all number or they "can't" engage their services.
In other words, I think it's a bunch of BS.
