Merger/Partnership with Engineering Firm

I've been partners with CEs and owned a portion of a CE firm. The engineers I worked with were self-absorbed and convinced that surveyors were merely support staff.

I have several colleagues that have spent their careers with engineering firms. Almost every one of them has the same professional opinion of engineers as I.

I still work with engineers from time to time on specific projects. Other than that I keep my distance, and my wallet, from them. Too many bad experiences to list.

If you're a surveyor, keep a surveying office. If an engineer needs a surveyor, let him contact you.

my $0.02

edit: Ask yourself the question, "Why would an engineer want to partner with a surveyor?"

"Why would an engineer want to partner with a surveyor?"

Thinking the same thing here.

> "Why would an engineer want to partner with a surveyor?"

So someone in the office would have a personality 😀

Simple answer. They want some one to respond to their needs ASAP without delay and on their schedule. It is about CONTROL.
In recent years, the NJ civil engineering community has been trying to revise the requiremenst for sitting for the PLS without having an accredited 4 year degree in land surveying. Why, you might ask? Because they did not want to wait for a surveyor to provide their topo or whatever. Once the recession hit much of that talk wnet away due to most surveyor's having nothing but time on their hands.
If you merge or partner you will become the serf in their domain.

You used to hit your head alot when you were a kid didn't you? 😉

> You used to hit your head alot when you were a kid didn't you? 😉

Mom drank

It looks as though some folks here share my personal views.

Here's an example of what I was talking about earlier in this post:

My partner, a p.e., and I were courting a local municipality in an attempt to pick up an infrastructure improvement project. After our research I had determined the surveying portion of the contract would be 12k. The engineer had determined his part would be 90K.

We were successful in the interview and selection process. I was unable* to make it to the meeting at the City where we were going to hammer out the fees. The City had determined their budget would allow 100K for the contract.

After my partner returned I was told I had to cut 2K from the surveying fees to fit the City's budget. I didn't like it, but I had SOME fluff in the job. I found out later the engineer hadn't cut his price at all and allowed the entire reduction to rest on the survey fees. This was suppose to be my "partner". His explanation was "the survey crews will be just standing around outside for at least that much time".

* - I also found out later he was instrumental in making sure I was unable to attend the fee negotiations. It wasn't long after that I decided that he did not have ANY of my interests very close to his heart.

This was not an isolated incident.

i'd agree with everybody here in a general sense, though not everything is general.

i was brought onto a small civil firm a year ago. indeed the stated purpose was that they were tired of subbing out their survey work and getting half the work promised in double the time promised.

what advantages am i seeing? 1. i don't have to bird dog any work. none. these guys are absolute monsters at keeping me busy. my schedule, as of today, is full through mid-september. 2. i don't have to deal with books, hr, or very much in the way of anything other than SURVEYING and a little bit of equipment and vehicle upkeep issues, which i want to do anyways. 3. i NEVER get the "we need your file in xxxxxCAD2004/13/3D2014/penzd/pnezd/pdenz/etc stuff. spent a little effort up front integrating our standards and that's never been an issue since. 4. i have a support structure of a business that's established, successful, and well positioned locally, which means a whole bunch in terms of credibility and protection in terms practical issues like insurance and finances, but also when i go to shake hands with a client, site super, city reviewer, etc.

it's a small firm, and i realize i'm probably lucky and an outlier in many aspects, but there is another side to the coin...

I must be lucky. I've worked for a civil engineering firm for 30 years and feel I've always been treated fairly. I get a little bit of the surveyors are a necessary evil once in a while but not from my boss. I also get to run my own show most of the time so it works out well for me. I also get to do other things at times like material testing and construction inspection to mix things up a little bit.

It doesn't have to be a bad thing, you just need to figure out if they will respect your work and treat you as an equal before you merge.

We anticipate a pow wow with an interested firm in the next week or so.

If you were the surveyor at this pow wow, how would you proceed? What questions would you want answered? Details, details, details, please...

"Why would an engineer want to partner with a surveyor?"

So they could get quality data in a uniform format.

Geo

That's kind of an open ended question.

The first thing I would ascertain is the location of the PLS in Responsible Charge located on the firms T.O. (Table of Organization). I'm assuming there is at least one Chief Operations Officer. Generally that position would lord over different engineering disciplines such as structural, civil, electrical, etc.

If the firm is truly offering Land Surveying services, the PLS in responsible charge should answer to the same desk all the engineers answer to. The PLS should also be directly responsible for all of the survey department's personnel, field and office.

Be wary of a T.O. that places the PLS in a slot that answers to anyone other than the C.O.O. I have never, or rarely, seen an engineer that could manage a survey department with any sort of direction except for completion of his or her own projects. If that's the case, they're just looking for staff. Some firms just need the "stamp". No back talk, no more field time, just sign the damn thing!

Daily supervision of multiple crews and projects can be like herding cats in a thunderstorm. Hopefully if the firm is really interested in maintaining a surveying department they'll make it worth someone's while. Otherwise they are probably just under the impression if they get a surveyor under the roof, they can quit paying "too much" for surveying services. Run, don't walk, away from that scenario.

Just a personal opinion from an old man that has been there, done that, got way too many t-shirts....

:good:

> So they could get quality data in a uniform format.

Oh yeah, I forgot....surveyors are incapable of providing neither unless they have an engineer involved.

Geo

Good points, Paden

In the past, working through the details of a biz partnership prenup have ended where my control freak tendencies began.

This time around, I'd like to enter the discussion with ideas for creating a kind of interdependent alliance without all the strings...

I don't think that's necessarily implied- with our guys the case was consistent quality work on time and budget. They've been busy since before I joined, and were subbing work to multiple firms based upon schedule first and price second. Hard to dictate standards when you have to use multiple companies due to workload. Again, I realize my situation is exceptional in that I'm working with 4 people who I called coworkers for a decade at a previous job, but they give me ultimate authority on survey related matters, provide an organizational security that I'd lack otherwise (to some degree), and handle all the bs I want no part of. And clearly, in case it's not implied- I'm not concerned, personally, with being a businessman. At least as a primary function. I'm a surveyor, and appreciate having found a framework that allows me to be one at a stress level that is 90% reduced relative to running a standalone company. And I also realize I may well be in the minority in that regard.

solo

> And I also realize I may well be in the minority in that regard.

You may not be in a minority. Working within a profitable organization is rewarding. And working relationships are the secret ingredient for making any endeavor profitable.

In my experience I never made anything but wages working for an employer. I tried to get my piece of the pie with larger firms. Sadly, it didn't happen. I remember a project that was priced (by someone other than a surveyor) after a review of aerials that were taken during the winter. By the time we hit the ground, the vegetation nearly impenetrable. I got brow-beat by the principal of the firm because progress was not as quick as someone expected. Over-time was refused because it was something we "should have been able to get done" in the allotted time.

All I heard about was how much we were spending on the survey. When the project was complete two of the firm's engineers got paid vacations to Cozumel because we "did so well" on the project.

I'm getting a familiar, bad taste in my mouth. I'd better shut up.

"...surveyors are incapable of providing neither unless they have an engineer involved."

You have that in your area too?

solo

So, where did they send you for vacation? :-S