Meeting with copyright Attorney

Knudsen Hermansson lectures on the application of copyright law to a situation such as you describe.

JB,

I know a surveyor in the area that I work that dealt with the very issues that you describe. I think he has fought many battles concerning the issue of copyright and land surveys. I'm not sure of what success he has had (if any)

If I recall, he actually brought a legal action against a title insurance company, asserting that they were copying and relying upon documents that he prepared for risk assessment after the fact.

One of the issues I recall that became problematic is proving that the individual or agent who copied the document was acting in 'good faith'. Meaning that they had authority from the original paying client of the the surveyor to rely upon the facts of the document as represented. An issue of 'work for hire' and 'original work' became fine legal details that were, not only ambiguous from a legal stand point to discern, but yet prove.

As far as case law-
There aint any.
Therein lays the problem.
If there were, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I will contact him tomorrow and tell him about your post, maybe he will contact you.

Thank you Al, but a google search on that name returned nothing relevant. Could
I have the name wrong?
THX

> Thank you Al, but a google search on that name returned nothing relevant. Could
> I have the name wrong?
> THX

JB

Try this

Knud E. Hermansen

http://www.umaine.edu/set/svt/articles/CopyrightBasics.pdf

http://www.umaine.edu/set/svt/articles

FYI

Mason v. Montgomery Data, Inc
., 967F.2? 135 (5?h Cir. 1992)

http://www.lsrp.com/index.html

This link will take you "Land Surveyors Reference Page".

In the left hand column click on Articles of Intrrest. You will find some articles by Knud Hermansen regarding Copyrights. There used to be a lot more by him, but they are gone now. At one time these were all in Professor Dave Wahstrom's (?) Surpass site. I had downloaded all of Knud's articles several years ago, but they were all on a drive that crashed.

I see that 6th already posted the info.

I have always tried to list and identify both the seller and the buyer on my survey maps which are involved in a transaction of real estate. This seems to help somewhat, but I have seen an architect show a portion of my map of survey on his plan without my permission also.

Charles,

Thanks for that link to the LSRP page and in turn to the articles by Knud posted there. What a wealth of material to consider and read through. I'm delighted to find it.

Al

> Myself and another Surveyor are meeting with a copyright Attorney this Friday to address an issue with our local MLS.
> The issue at hand is the fact that the MLS is actively soliciting their membership (real estate Brokers, et al) to scan and submit any surveys of properties the Brokers are listing for sale to the MLS as an attachment to the listing. These surveys are often obtained by the listing Agents from the sellers and are included in handout packages which are left at the house being sold, along with pictures and other information pertaining to the property. The surveys, after being scanned and uploaded are then available to anyone with access to the MLS as a downloadable PDF.
> The result is that the MLS is developing a database of surveys to be passed on to potential buyers.

It seems to me that you might be thinking too much like a land surveyor.

Why not consider this a HUGE marketing opportunity? Why not meet with the Real Estate Association and work WITH them to develop the database? Make a way for each survey added to the database to include a direct link to the surveyor's contact information and link to their email/website to obtain an update on the survey? Also make a way for a general note to print automatically on each survey explaining that the survey should be updated before relying upon it for any pending buy/sell offer.

That way, the prospective seller/buyer will be on notice and encouraged to do an update EVERY TIME there is a new sale on the property. Sure, they can't be required to, but why not encourage them to update the survey? Who better to update it than the surveyor who did the first survey? Get the MLS to make a link to a printable listing of survey companies when there is no survey listed as well. That way, the buyer/seller will receive a listing stating something like, "No Survey is Currently Available," "Please contact one of the following surveyors to obtain a property survey."

This opportunity could be HUGE for the surveyors of North Carolina if you play your cards right. It could also be HUGE opportunity to piss off any potential work you might ever expect from the realtors.

JBS

It might be to late for surveys already surveyed, but you could always put a disclaimer on your drawings:

This survey, and all of it's contents, are copyrighted and cannot be used without the expressed written consent of the good people at JB Surveyors, LTD.

I like the option Professor Stahl has posted above. People tend to like you a lot more when you want to work with them instead of against them.

I know you didn't want to debate the merits of this issue, but you should look at why others are opposing you.

Good Luck,

Radar

What are you trying to accomplish? Not to be flippant, but who cares? I know my stuff gets used for things other than the intended purpose all of the time. There isn't anything I can do about it. Once the client pays the bill they can give that survey to whoever they choose. My liability stays the same. I certify to the conditions on the date of the survey. If someone should rely on that as 3rd party info what do I care?

What am I missing?

> I know my stuff gets used for things other than the intended purpose all of the time.

Does this knowledge make you any more or less liable for damages when your sketch is used for other than it's intended purpose?

> There isn't anything I can do about it. Once the client pays the bill they can give that survey to whoever they choose. My liability stays the same.

Think: EXPOSURE

> I certify to the conditions on the date of the survey. If someone should rely on that as 3rd party info what do I care?

Can a third party sue you for damages?

Jim-

Presently, there is a group of surveyors in Ontario who are suing Teranet http://www.teranet.ca/ for breach of copyright.

The lawyer is Will O'Hara http://www.gardiner-roberts.com/profile.aspx?ID=36 that your lawyer may wish to contact.

$50M Proposed Class Action Filed in Relation to Copyright Violations

11/12/2010

On November 12, 2010, a proposed class action was filed by Keatley Surveying Ltd. against Teranet Inc. in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice. In the Statement of Claim, the Plaintiff alleges that Teranet Inc. has made certain unauthorized use of drawings, maps, plans and charts created or owned by the Plaintiff and other Ontario land surveyors, contary to the provisions of the federal Copyright Act, and claims damages of $50M, and other relief.

The claim is brought on behalf of the Plaintiff and of a proposed class comprised of land surveyors in Ontario.

William O'Hara of Gardiner Roberts LLP is counsel for the Plaintiff and for the proposed class, together with Ward Branch and Luciana Brasil of Branch MacMaster LLP .

Surveyors in New South Wales were successful at the High Court of Australia http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2008/35.html after about 15 years per Pat McNamara's article: http://www.fig.net/pub/fig2010/papers/ts06j%5Cts06j_mcnamara_4743.pdf

That is a good point. I'll bring it up at our pre-meeting.
Thx

I'll be interested in what the attorney has to tell you. There have been issues here about plat copyrights with regard to the city or county publishing the plats on line. One county requested that a surveyor I worked with remove his copyright statement that was on his plats. To my knowledge, it didn't go anywhere legally.

I did a quick search, but didn't find any case law/appeals cases that involved plat copyrights here in the US. The closest I got were: Rockford Map Publishers, Inc. v. Directory Service Co., No. 84-2301, U.S. Court of Appeals for Seventh Cir., 768 F.2d 145 from July 1985 and Muchnick v. Thomson Corp., Docket Nos. 05-5943-cv(L), 06-1223-cv(CON), U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Cir., 509 F.3d 116 dated 2007.

Too bad we haven't been more pro-active on this issue.

Good thought. Thanks for the positive thought.

Expecting english land law to have any bearing on US legal land problems is foolish.

Remember 'Cooley's Caution':
"...
All history teaches us that different peoples, or even the same people in different stages of advancement, are not to be governed by the like modes and forms; and while we all concede this as a general rule, we are too apt, perhaps, when we compare with our own the system which prevails in the country from which we have mainly derived our ideas of government and law, to forget that we erected our structure on foundation ideas of democracy which never pervaded in the governing classes in Great Britian, and that the aristocratic sentiment, which is there controlling, is here, in a political point of view, insignificant.
..."

Richard Schaut

> Expecting english land law to have any bearing on US legal land problems is foolish.
>
> Remember 'Cooley's Caution':
> "...
> All history teaches us that different peoples, or even the same people in different stages of advancement, are not to be governed by the like modes and forms; and while we all concede this as a general rule, we are too apt, perhaps, when we compare with our own the system which prevails in the country from which we have mainly derived our ideas of government and law, to forget that we erected our structure on foundation ideas of democracy which never pervaded in the governing classes in Great Britian, and that the aristocratic sentiment, which is there controlling, is here, in a political point of view, insignificant.
> ..."
>
> Richard Schaut

Richard,

Where do you think English common law, which is used as a basis for much of our U.S. law came from?

THINK.

Meeting with copyright Attorney Mr. Johnson

In 1783, the colonists won the war with England and we abolished the 'office' of king here in the US, remember what you were taught in the 3rd -5th grade of elementary school?

English common law is not a legitimate basis for the American legal system.

Cooley recognized that and that is the reason he published Cooley's Blackstone which is where I got the quote that you obviously are incapable of understanding.

Study the quote, and you will begin to understand why Chief Justice Warren Burger, in his 'Report on the State of the Judiciary' in 1984, stated that '(T)he American legal system is no longer acceptable for a civilised society.'

Use your own brain instead of parroting the garbage you are fed.

Richard Schaut

Meeting with copyright Attorney Mr. Johnson

>
> Study the quote, and you will begin to understand why Chief Justice Warren Burger, in his 'Report on the State of the Judiciary' in 1984, stated that '(T)he American legal system is no longer acceptable for a civilised society.'
>
> Use your own brain instead of parroting the garbage you are fed.
>

Of course, Richard's myopic viewpoint which enables him to crow-bar every statement ever written to fit into a preconceived notion of his own reality too often requires the statement to be taken entirely out of context and taken much further than ever intended by the author.

Chief Justice Warren Burger's comment was made with regard to the courtroom battle, not a rant on the justice system as a whole. The context of his message was that there should be more consideration given to the combatants and more enablement toward their ability to settle their matters relying upon means of Alternate Dispute Resolution as an alternative to the courtroom battle.

“THE ENTIRE legal profession—lawyers, judges, law teachers—has become so mesmerized with the stimulation of the courtroom contest, that we tend to forget that we ought to be healers healers of conflict…. To rely on the adversarial process as the principal means of resolving conflicting claims is a mistake that must be corrected…. For some disputes, trials will be the only means, but for many [claims], trials by the adversarial contest must in time go the way of the ancient trial by battle and blood. Our system is too costly, too painful, too destructive, too inefficient for a truly civilized people.” Chief Justice Warren Burger, Annual Report on the State of the Judiciary, 70 A.BA J. 62, 66 (Apr. 1, 1984).

A similar sentiment was shared by Chief Justice Sandra Day O'Connor when she said:

"The courts of this country should not be the place where resolution of disputes begins. They should be the places where the disputes end after alternative methods of resolving disputes have been considered and tried." -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

So, before you actually believe Richard's bizarre ramblings, read the context of the numerous quotations that he recites. They are very powerful ideas that are quite worthy of study. There is much that can be learned from them. Just make certain you understand the context of the snippets that Richard beats us over the heads with, and learn from them. Just don't take Richard's word for their meaning.

JBS