Holy Cow, post: 339159, member: 50 wrote: We don't have such a creature, administratively speaking that is. Adjustments don't happen.
An agreed line can be used as the basis to create descriptions for deeds to be swapped, but that is it. We also don't have any of this foolishness of two adjoining lots growing/shrinking but still being labeled the same as they were prior to the action. If Lot 6 was 50' wide and 120' deep to start with, it will stay those dimensions forever unless a complete/signed off replat of two or more lots is created and filed. Then Lot 6 no longer exists whatsoever.
"If Lot 6 was 50' wide and 120' deep to start with, it will stay those dimensions forever" until a surveyor measures the distance between to found original corner monuments and finds them to be different than the record... We doth delude ourselves ...
JBS
In the book ÛÏMadson, on Florida Real Property Boundary LawÛ c1984,on page 123 is a General form for a property line agreement with a hypothetical case. The book is copyrighted so I am not going to post the form here because Madson would likely sue me.
JBStahl, post: 339225, member: 427 wrote: An document used for an exchange of title is inappropriate for a boundary agreement. I would NEVER recommend a Warranty Deed especially. When the location of the boundary is unknown or uncertain, how can the parties guarantee title to an exchange of property. The fix is worse than the problem.
JBS
If I can not relocate a boundary, I don't consider the survey completed.
I've heard that in some areas this may happen to some surveyors where intent was never addressed or understood.
Clients choose to exchange property and make boundary agreements for many reasons.
One of the most often is when they have property that the boundary lines are at 60deg angles or less from the roadway.
Sometimes that is how the direction of the road was planned and others the boundaries were designed that way.
I have made such exchanges for several neighborhoods wanting to square their properties.
There is some rule that title cannot be exchanged without some compensation being made, ie "$10 and other consideration".
A Quit Claim deed relinquishes title and does not always convey any title.
Many times that title must be earned after the fact by awaiting some grace period.
A quitclaim deed is betterthan no deed at all..........
A Harris, post: 339239, member: 81 wrote: If I can not relocate a boundary, I don't consider the survey completed.
I've heard that in some areas this may happen to some surveyors where intent was never addressed or understood.
Clients choose to exchange property and make boundary agreements for many reasons.
One of the most often is when they have property that the boundary lines are at 60deg angles or less from the roadway.Sometimes that is how the direction of the road was planned and others the boundaries were designed that way.
I have made such exchanges for several neighborhoods wanting to square their properties.
There is some rule that title cannot be exchanged without some compensation being made, ie "$10 and other consideration".
A Quit Claim deed relinquishes title and does not always convey any title.
Many times that title must be earned after the fact by awaiting some grace period.
A quitclaim deed is better than no deed at all..........
There are many times when the parties intentionally want to create a new boundary in lieu of the existing boundary. Every new boundary requires an exchange of title to accomplish the task. Title documents (warranty deed, special warranty deed, or quitclaim deed) are the appropriate instruments to accomplish the task.
This thread is about owners who need to document an agreement to settle the location of an existing boundary. Entirely a different problem requiring an entirely different solution.
JBS
A Harris, post: 339239, member: 81 wrote: If I can not relocate a boundary, I don't consider the survey completed.
I've heard that in some areas this may happen to some surveyors where intent was never addressed or understood.
Clients choose to exchange property and make boundary agreements for many reasons.
One of the most often is when they have property that the boundary lines are at 60deg angles or less from the roadway.Sometimes that is how the direction of the road was planned and others the boundaries were designed that way.
I have made such exchanges for several neighborhoods wanting to square their properties.
There is some rule that title cannot be exchanged without some compensation being made, ie "$10 and other consideration".
A Quit Claim deed relinquishes title and does not always convey any title.
Many times that title must be earned after the fact by awaiting some grace period.
A quitclaim deed is betterthan no deed at all..........
What you are describing is not a boundary line agreement. What you are describing is an exchange of property.
Different strokes for different folks. State statutes will dictate what is allowed and what isn't.
Two people agreeing that such and such a place is now the 1/16th quarter section line isn't going to fly.
Two people agreeing that the common line between them is only 702 feet instead of 720 isn't going to fly if there is a third party whose deed is also based on that 720 figure.
I get it when one is talking about some crude description where both ends are rock solid but the path could have some confusion.
suzie queue (good one), a boundary line agreement would not be an deed swap. No property is exchanging hands when you agree on a boundary line. Boundary line agreements are virtually made for your kind of situation where the exact line location cannot be definitively determined. If you can come to an agreement between adjoiners on where the indefinite line is going to be, you save a great deal of money in litigation and multiple surveys. Ideally you would document the agreement and have a survey describe the line you agree to.
When two adjacent owners do not know the location of their boundary, why call in a surveyor. They can agree on some location to be their boundary and they simply shake hands and maintain to that location and they can even build a fence or other tale-tale that will show its physical location. They can write down that information on paper, have it witnessed, get it notarized and record it.
When they call a surveyor in, he will relocate the unknown boundary and their needs will change because the boundary is not unknown anymore.......
The survey enters the scene when one of the properties is being sold or refinanced and the surveyor will make his survey and show the intent that both property owners have displayed and make the proper paperwork to resolve any title problems according to the local and customary methods and/or according to their state laws.
Skeeter1996, post: 339200, member: 9224 wrote: This is an interesting subject. A Boundary Line Agreement can be used to avoid intense government requirements of review as in Boundary Line Adjustments. You can avoid an expensive Section breakdown survey to find the 1/16 boundary line between properties. I understand there are some problems with using an Agreement because Deeds may not be filed to reflect the Agreement. I popped the question to our County Attorney. His first reaction was they are no good. After a brief reflection he told me he would research it. That was a month ago and I haven't heard back from him. I've proposed Boundary Line Agreements as a continuing education topic at the next State Conference, but knowledgeable speakers on this subject are hard to find. I think they maybe a valuable tool to mediate boundary line disagreements.
My 2 cents
skeeter, I would recommend John Stahl (posting here as JBStahl) to discuss this topic with your professional society. He is very knowledgeable in this topic and in mediation between parties.
Two people agreeing on a 1/16th corner being the true position, makes that 1/16th corner the true position for their common boundary line and not for anyone else whose boundary relies on the 1/16th corner.
A Harris, post: 339260, member: 81 wrote: When two adjacent owners do not know the location of their boundary, why call in a surveyor. They can agree on some location to be their boundary and they simply shake hands and maintain to that location and they can even build a fence or other tale-tale that will show its physical location. They can write down that information on paper, have it witnessed, get it notarized and record it.
The real bugger is writing down that location on paper. The reason they should call in a surveyor would not be to survey a common line, but to create the legal description of the agreed-to line.
Abe Lincoln said it.
You can call a cow's tail a leg, but it doesn't make it one.
From NH RSA 472
472:4 Agreement in Writing. ÛÒ A writing, reciting that the parties signing the same are adjoining owners, that the division line between their lands is in dispute, that the line described in their respective deeds or in the deeds of any of their predecessors in title cannot be located on the ground by reason of the loss or obliteration of the monuments and boundaries therein named and described, and containing a full and complete description of the line thus agreed upon and established, and the volume and page where their said respective deeds are recorded, or if title was not acquired by deed, a statement identifying each owner's other source of title, shall be signed and acknowledged by the parties to the agreement before any officer having authority to take the acknowledgment of deeds, and recorded with the registry of deeds for the county where the lands are located, and, when the volume and page of an owner's deed is set forth in said agreement, the register of deeds shall note the recording of said agreement on the margin where the said respective deeds of the parties to said agreement are recorded. In those registries recording on microfilm, in lieu of noting the recording of said agreement on the margin where the respective deeds of the parties to said agreement are recorded, the register of deeds shall list all parties to the agreement in both the grantor and grantee indices.
There are times when a surveyor, diligently doing their work, cannot place the lines on the ground. As others have said, no deeds need be exchanged as no property is exchanging hands. Only an agreement as to the location of the ambiguous boundary is being made. In cases where the boundary lines are determinable, but not desirable to the parties, a boundary line adjustment, subject to zoning, etc., is required.
If they agree, and it becomes binding in law, it doesn't change their legal descriptions. The true 1/16th corner is more than likely ambiguous (if their actual property line is unknown). The one agreed to by the two parties is then the corner referred to in their respective descriptions it's the legal corner for those parties.
What is true by law isn't always what is true in fact. An example might be, for instance, a person might be convicted of a crime he didn't commit. He is legally guilty, while being innocent in fact. So you and Abe Lincoln are correct, but it certainly happens.
A new twist has crept in and should be addressed.
Boundary agreements memorializing lines that cannot be in the original location are transfers of real property. Those that create alternate locations for controlling corners (when the original is in place) pose great risk to others and should be avoided.
As with most of what we do, step one is identifying the survey problems to be solved. If you get a call for a 'boundary agreement' survey make sure that is what needs done. As Professionals it is our job to walk clients through solutions. We can't do that if we fail to identify the problem...
If there is a conflict between the dashed line on the Plat and the physical location of the 1/16th line on the ground then it is a question of fact which is the true or best evidence of the location of the 1/16th line. Once the conflicts are resolved one way or the other then the winning location is the 1/16th line. The owners may agree to resolve the conflict too. There is no transfer of title and we aren't calling a duck a goose.
The problem comes when others are dependent on that 1/16th corner. This agreement stuff simply seems to create two or more locations with the same title. If two owners on the other side of that 16th get together and select a different spot as their definition of the 1/16th corner, then you have the potential for three different 1/16th corners instead of one.
An agreement has to be made for all parties it affects if an agreement is needed. Not just two parties if the corner affects 3. All three would have to agree. There would only be one corner. The agreed corner.
Skeeter,
I have specialized in resolving boundary problems for the past 25 years. Beginning to get a pretty good handle choosing the proper fix for the given problem. I use Boundary Agreements, Boundary Adjustments and Correction Deeds (and several combinations thereof for specific instances) on a regular basis. I've been teaching classes at surveyor conferences across the country on boundary disputed resolution by invitation. If you're interested in setting one up, let me know. I'd be glad to offer my thoughts.
JBS
In Washington it's:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=58.04.007&apos ;">RCW 58.04.007
Affected landowners may resolve dispute over location of a point or line ÛÓ Procedures.
Whenever a point or line determining the boundary between two or more parcels of real property cannot be identified from the existing public record, monuments, and landmarks, or is in dispute, the landowners affected by the determination of the point or line may resolve any dispute and fix the boundary point or line by one of the following procedures:
(1) If all of the affected landowners agree to a description and marking of a point or line determining a boundary, they shall document the agreement in a written instrument, using appropriate legal descriptions and including a survey map, filed in accordance with chapter 58.09 RCW. The written instrument shall be signed and acknowledged by each party in the manner required for a conveyance of real property. The agreement is binding upon the parties, their successors, assigns, heirs and devisees and runs with the land. The agreement shall be recorded with the real estate records in the county or counties in which the affected parcels of real estate or any portion of them is located;
(2) If all of the affected landowners cannot agree to a point or line determining the boundary between two or more parcels of real estate, any one of them may bring suit for determination as provided in RCW 58.04.020.
[1996 c 160 å¤ 3.]
I recently helped a client resolve a dispute. He purchased his property about a year ago and http://146.129.54.93:8193/imgcache/OPR20140325900003-1-1.pdf&apos ;">had it surveyed; we discovered his neighbors house was over the line about 5 feet. His lawyer told him not to do anything....?
It seems that when the property was originally divided; it was a divorce settlement. The husband got the west 400 feet and the wife kept the remainder. Fast forward through a few owners and my client decides to have it surveyed. About a year later, the neighbor decides he wants to sell, but the survey reveals the discrepancy; http://146.129.54.93:8193/imgcache/OPR20150831900001-1-2.pdf&apos ;">the most equitable resolve is to swap equal amounts of property.