Home cost and % fee> Jim in AZ
> "Why would you not be able to set up a job for less than $350?"
>
> Because I charge what my services are worth to my clients, not how much it costs me to produce them. If and when I think hourly, I start at $150/hr and go up.
>
> $350 is prostitution and a disservice to the profession.
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Gee Jim, that's a little harsh sounding!
I don't work cheap, and like you I start at $150/hr, actually I just upped that last month to $175.
However, that being said, I've practiced in my area for 29 years now and have a few subdivisions that I have done. (ok, more than a "few")
There are plenty of times when I can go out and stake property lines in any of those subdivision in less than 2 hours from start to finish.
So before you start calling "prostitution and a disservice to the profession" you should consider circumstances beyond yours! There is a whole big world out there beyond AZ. And if you charge more than $350 for an hour or two's worth of work there are some choice words for you!
By the most of my "cheaper' projects are in the $750 range, but my average is probably around $1,500, until you start figuring in the Big jobs $'s...
Dtp
P.S. looking forward to my AZ visit in Sept!!
One factor that may create what appears to be a huge discrepancy may be what is required in each locale. Even within my state (Kentucky) there can be pretty large differences between counties as to what is required for a division of property and some counties are claiming some level of authority over a retracement survey.
I would imagine between states there are significant enough differences that they will alter the perception some amount.
For example, the review and recording fees posted by some folks seem to be extremely high in comparison to my area. It also appears that even for a boundary retracement, you may be required to have the review and recording in some instances. Whereas in my county a retracement survey does not require any review or filing fees. Do you guys that have these fees include that in your price or is that a separate line item for the client?
Review and filing for a major subdivision can be as little as $200-300 here.
Also, what one shows on the drawing can impact the price comparison as well. Some folks may choose to show everything including trees. Some areas you will deal only with the boundary lines, set backs, and easements. Some areas seem to deal only with the boundary line.
Average house price - 90,000. With a range from as little as 30K to as high as 800K.
roughly 0.6% - 0.8% on a straight forward lot retracement
known problem areas go up from there
In my area, I can often complete one of these from research to finished plat in less than four hours.
roughly 0.4% - 0.6% on a straight forward farm retracement
if problems, price goes up from there
roughly 2.6% - 3% on a subdivision development plan
Probably 98% of my work is in one county. If I go one county east, the home prices change very slightly, but I have to charge as much as three times more due to differences in how the two counties conduct business.
not all of our projects go on state plane, but we try to add them all
because of our heavy involvement with the sewer project and road takings, i will have 1/2 to 3/4 of the town completely tied in very shortly. south chatham is the real mess with LCC 10313 and 10312. i will hold off on those...
it will be fun to market the instant survey grade gis map from the web.
😛
Well, like I said pop on over and show 'em how you do it. When your $1000 invoice hits the closing table, that's where it will stay, and good luck collecting, you won't be under contract either.
Perhaps we're not talking ab out the same service, but you'll max out here for a loan closing survey (up to 1 acre) at the $350-400 mark. Prostitution or no.
It's not something the Surveyors came up with, but I agree that we do it to ourselves. Especially the jacklegs.
I had a client come in last Friday. Interestingly, hers is a property that I mentioned here before where a Planning Board endorsed a plan with an unbuildable with a note it would be merged with the abutting property for building purposes. In 2005 an attorney conveyed it out (playing dumb). I found the problem, now I have to find a solution. It will not be a quick fix for a number of reasons. Before I can even think about a site plan for demolition and reconstruction, the attorney (a smarter one) and I will have to fix the buildability issue.
Not to mention price fixing issues.
> WOW! I sure am appreciative that they don't have that type of 'survey' in the states I work. How can it even be called a survey? More like a drive by with a limited amount of research. I do more than that just looking at providing a potential client a survey cost.
>
> I'm with Jim from AZ on this one.
As I stated before, per our BOR, the individual lot survey is considered a boundary survey and is subject to the same rules.
The drive-by you mention is only done by the same bastards who depress the price for those of us who put out a professional product.
PS, you probably DO have those where you work.
Home cost and % fee> Jim in AZ
"Gee Jim, that's a little harsh sounding!"
The truth is often hard to hear. Unless we ALL start charging fees like other "Professionals" do, we will never be thought of as Professionals, but simply as tradesmen. I am not a tradesman. I have been surveying successfully for 40 years now, and I routinely tell prospective clients that I will not be the "low bidder." Sure, I've seen some lean times, but I will NOT damage my profession by charging low fees. I owe the profession more than that.
Will you be in the northern (cool) part of AZ?
My cousin lives in Charlotte..
Kinda by Tryon, if I recall correctly. In May of this year, there were lots of houses for sale in her neighborhood.
Y'all should walk a mile JB's shoes before we get all upset about his prices.
"Well, like I said pop on over and show 'em how you do it. When your $1000 invoice hits the closing table, that's where it will stay, and good luck collecting, you won't be under contract either.
Perhaps we're not talking ab out the same service, but you'll max out here for a loan closing survey (up to 1 acre) at the $350-400 mark. Prostitution or no.
It's not something the Surveyors came up with, but I agree that we do it to ourselves. Especially the jacklegs."
My $1,000 invoice never hits the table... The fee is carefully negotiated prior to the work being performed, and the 50% retainer is in the bank before I hit the ground. My client understands why it is in his best interest to pay 2 or 3 times what the "jackleg" (lowballer). I tell potential clients that I never want to be the "low-bidder" (hate that term!) because it probably means I've missed something.
Call it prostituion, lowballing, whatever you want. I can't charge what it's worth when the 2 other guys in town are cheaper than me ($350 for a closing survey), and don't have 2 kids to feed. Unfortunately, if I want to work, then I have to charge something considered "reasonable" given what the market will bear. Reasonable, no; BS, yes, and I don't like it one bit. What can I do; stand by my priciples or feed the kids? I've only been in business for 2 years, not 20-30 like those guys. They should know better, because it only hurts us all. There's a reason why mid-size firms don't do closing surveys around here. When I worked for a mid-size firm, one of the bene's was a lot survey if you sold your house. We would spend $600-1000 in billable time doing those, because we did them right. But you can't get that amount anywhere. People just won't pay it. They can go down the street and get it for 1/2 the price. Believe me, if I could get my hands on a couple of those $275 surveys, they would get sent to the board with a complaint and a list of violations.
A lady in the next town over called me for a quote so she could put in a pool. I gave her the number, and she said "thanks" and hung up. A month later she called back and told me she forgot what I quoted. I gave her the same number, and she said "so-and-so told me $x, if you beat it by $10, the job is yours, Bucko". I laughed and told her to enjoy the pool. What do you do with that? If someone is willing to do a survey for a pool permit for $350, then it's a sad state of affairs.
More than once, I've shown up to do a closing survey and the homeowner was just leaving. sometimes they come back in a few hours, and I might still there doing whatever I need to do. "You're still here?". If a conversation starts, then I get to explain what all is involved, how it takes a while to do it right, how much equipment/insurance costs, etc. Next thing you know, they have a couple of my cards and the guy down the street calls (whose lot info I already have from the previous survey) calls, & I'm in & out in an hour or so. Then I can make a little $$.
I do have a couple of clients that appreciate what it takes; they know if I put a number on a job, then that's what it takes to get it done. They don't question me, and pay promptly.
JB-
Just curious; are these lots in a subdivision having mons at all the corners? Do you charge the same for a parcel created by deed (no survey)? What do you do if you find discrepancies?
In my neck of the woods, we deal a lot with a parent parcel, usually a section of land, broken down by deed (usually written by an attorney with calls to cardinal out of a perfect 640 acre section and never qualified properly). In the case of the subdivisions; most are well monumented and can take to the bank, but rarely are all of the corners in (I think the guy trenching the utilities used the mons for target practice). Some of the subdivisions are outright #&@%ed! The crews would traverse down the street slappin' in corners as they went, then a week later, they (probably a different crew on a different traverse) would be-bop down the back of the lots, plunkin' in the back corners. 2.5 acre lots that should be rectangles are now parallelograms (or worse).
I never take any survey for granted around here. What you think should be a slam dunk.........well....?
Typically any where from 0.4 to 0.6% for a boundary survey and 2.0 to 3.0% for a subdivision (don't like them and will try to make them worth my while). I won't dispatch a crew (me) for less than $800 min. I'm not going to knock any one for charging less, you do what you have to do.
How come Lawyers and Realtors can fix our prices but we can't? Some of these dang people tell clients that they could get it surveyed for $200, then the clients are thinking you're trying to rip them off when you tell them it will cost 1 or 2K. What if I told potential clients that they shouldn't have to pay more than 0.5% for realtor's fees, or over $50 for a lawyer? (okay, old gripe...just saying...)
> It's not something the Surveyors came up with, but I agree that we do it to ourselves. Especially the jacklegs.
What decade was it when they came up with the price?
JBS
My cousin lives in Charlotte..
> Y'all should walk a mile JB's shoes before we get all upset about his prices.
Absolutely.
> JB-
>
> Just curious; are these lots in a subdivision having mons at all the corners? Do you charge the same for a parcel created by deed (no survey)? What do you do if you find discrepancies?
>
> In my neck of the woods, we deal a lot with a parent parcel, usually a section of land, broken down by deed (usually written by an attorney with calls to cardinal out of a perfect 640 acre section and never qualified properly). In the case of the subdivisions; most are well monumented and can take to the bank, but rarely are all of the corners in (I think the guy trenching the utilities used the mons for target practice). Some of the subdivisions are outright #&@%ed! The crews would traverse down the street slappin' in corners as they went, then a week later, they (probably a different crew on a different traverse) would be-bop down the back of the lots, plunkin' in the back corners. 2.5 acre lots that should be rectangles are now parallelograms (or worse).
>
> I never take any survey for granted around here. What you think should be a slam dunk.........well....?
>
> Typically any where from 0.4 to 0.6% for a boundary survey and 2.0 to 3.0% for a subdivision (don't like them and will try to make them worth my while). I won't dispatch a crew (me) for less than $800 min. I'm not going to knock any one for charging less, you do what you have to do.
Indeed, we all work in a marketplace. Some folks seem to have the idea that my fee is a fraction of what the other people who provide the same service charge in my market. Do you think I wouldn't charge $800 to start my truck if I could. C'mon.
If they were here, and had to make a living, they would fall right in line with the rest of us. That's what a free market economy does, right?
I am a broker as well, and I know that in the classes they are VERY careful to advise the students that the 6% fee charged around here is NOT a "going rate". You are supposed to say "my firm charges 6%". Emphasis on the period. This is to avoid the price fixing stuff. Oddly enough you will almost never find a broker who charges anything other than the 6%. I bet that's fairly true nationally. I tried to tie my fee to the value of a property once and the broker (with HIS 6% well in hand) told me that my 0.5% was an outrage. He had to make sure an offer to purchase and contract form was filled out correctly so HIS 6% was perfectly reasonable. Right? (Yeah I know they split fees with the other broker and the firm.)
Next:
90% Of my work, and home sales here, are in well established subdivisions. Most of these are well monumented and aren't terribly difficult. When I find discrepancies I deal with them on the spot and explain on the plat what's going on. In other words, I survey.
I try to do two a day when things are busy (been a while), and once I got three done in a day and mapped by lunchtime the next. This month I have had 3.
I do charge more for metes and bounds lots, obviously there is a lot more research involved due to jr/sr rights. Most of the time I give a price for the M&B stuff, I never hear back from anyone.
I give talks to the area RE offices to try to educate the brokers as to why a survey should be a part of their due diligence, but it doesn't seem to help much. They simply don't care. EVERY SINGLE BROKER I'VE TALKED TO TELLS ME (TO MY FACE, MIND YOU) THAT THEY WOULD NEVER ALLOW A CLIENT OR CUSTOMER BUY A PROPERTY WITHOUT A SURVEY. But the economics dictates that they get to the closing table with as few hiccups as possible and will throw their dear client straight under the bus to get the deal done. Then they proclaim themselves "full service brokers". It's just insane. The only thing that's going to change this situation is for the right people to get smoked hard enough that the title insurance companies begin to require a survey, or themselves are forced to. Not sure how that would go. Maybe something like a "you can't write insurance and exclude yourself from a major source of a potential claim" law. I don't know. Hell, I don't know. The real question is WTF to do now? Really.
