MightyMoe, post: 423934, member: 700 wrote: It wasn't a bid, like I explained above
I know you lower the price of what you think the job is worth to get the job, so you it would not go to bid, which you may or may not have been awarded the job. I am just wondering what you would have spend $2,100 on after you submitted the bid since you said it would cost you that during the bidding process.
As I said it wasn't a bid, there's a big difference between a cost estimate and a bid
Maybe the trick is, if you know they are going to haggle, up the price of the initial quote.
dicker? Nope. Price is what I say it is. I posted my last one in the wrong thread.
Had a client recently that wanted to dicker, that is after the job was done! He was insistent on paying in person and wouldn't you know it as soon as he got here he complained about the price and said "can't you give me a break." I said "no" and took his check straight to the bank. I estimated the job with a high/low and gave him the low estimate as the bill. Still he wanted it even lower.
MightyMoe, post: 423940, member: 700 wrote: As I said it wasn't a bid, there's a big difference between a cost estimate and a bid
What is the big difference between the two? Shouldn't the price be the same between the two? It takes the same about of work to figure out a bid or cost estimate price on a project.
Scott Ellis, post: 423946, member: 7154 wrote: What is the big difference between the two? Shouldn't the price be the same between the two? It takes the same about of work to figure out a bid or cost estimate price on a project.
No, it doesn't, in this case the bid would include all the elements that go into the work. It will be a formal bid, not to exceed, much more time-consuming, including a lot more paperwork, possibly including a new audit.
Anyway, no doubt someone else would take it cheap and my number would have to get even lower, guessing where the low-baller would land, missing out on the work, or having to decline. Taking a bunch of time and not getting the work.
They also have told us at times our costs were too low and wanted us to raise them, and they have gone through our rates eliminating items that they don't allow like a GPS charge which of course means a larger per hour charge for crews. Point being that there are times I work with a client about pricing and I have other clients that have given me lots of work and never talked price or asked for any bid or costs, I'm starting on a new project for one of them today.
Is Alabama the only state with a BOR that strictly forbids surveyors (and engineers) from competing for projects by price? Qualification based selections (QBS) is a rule they are enforcing. We are not allowed to reduce our prices to obtain work because some might cut corners.
Steve Gilbert, post: 423951, member: 111 wrote: Is Alabama the only state with a BOR that strictly forbids surveyors (and engineers) from competing for projects by price? Qualification based selections (QBS) is a rule they are enforcing. We are not allowed to reduce our prices to obtain work because some might cut corners.
So there are no bids in Alabama for work?
Steve Gilbert, post: 423951, member: 111 wrote: Is Alabama the only state with a BOR that strictly forbids surveyors (and engineers) from competing for projects by price? Qualification based selections (QBS) is a rule they are enforcing. We are not allowed to reduce our prices to obtain work because some might cut corners.
Sure would be nice if more states followed suit. Bids are for contractors.
MightyMoe, post: 423950, member: 700 wrote: No, it doesn't, in this case the bid would include all the elements that go into the work. It will be a formal bid, not to exceed, much more time-consuming, including a lot more paperwork, possibly including a new audit.
Anyway, no doubt someone else would take it cheap and my number would have to get even lower, guessing where the low-baller would land, missing out on the work, or having to decline. Taking a bunch of time and not getting the work.
They also have told us at times our costs were too low and wanted us to raise them, and they have gone through our rates eliminating items that they don't allow like a GPS charge which of course means a larger per hour charge for crews. Point being that there are times I work with a client about pricing and I have other clients that have given me lots of work and never talked price or asked for any bid or costs, I'm starting on a new project for one of them today.
Seems right in line to me. If the project goes to open bids you know you're going to take a hit so why not take the smallest possible AND get the job?
I don't normally dicker, but if a good client asks me to sharpen my pencil a bit, I'd take a second look. I often throw numbers out without a huge amount of time, sounds like the situation MMoe is talking about here.
I did that once. The biggest contract I have ever done. I really wanted it and I got it. When I was done, I paid my workers wages + OT that they very much deserved, plane tickets, per diem, housing, car rental, etc.etc. I worked my ** off in the field with the crew for 2 months, paid myself nothing and broke even.
MightyMoe, post: 423952, member: 700 wrote: So there are no bids in Alabama for work?
From the Alabama BELS Cannon of Ethics:
330-X-14-.05 Practice. (Canon IV.) The engineer or land surveyor shall endeavor to build a practice and professional reputation on the merit of his or her services as follows:
(a) The engineer or land surveyor shall not offer, or promise to pay or deliver, directly or indirectly, any commission, political contribution, gift, favor, gratuity, benefit or
reward as an inducement to secure any specific professional engineering or professional land surveying work or assignment; providing and excepting, however, that an engineer or land surveyor may pay a duly licensed employment agency its fee or commission for securing engineering or land surveying employment in a salaried position.
(b) The engineer or land surveyor shall not solicit professional employment by self-laudatory advertising, or in any manner contrary to high professional standards.
(c) Licensees shall not falsify or permit misrepresentation of their, or their associates, academic or professional qualifications. They shall not misrepresent or exaggerate their degree of responsibility in prior assignments nor the complexity of said assignments. Presentations incident to the solicitation of employment or business shall not misrepresent pertinent facts concerning employers, employees, associates, joint ventures, or past accomplishments.
(d) The engineer or land surveyor shall not supplant, nor attempt to supplant, directly or indirectly, another engineer or land surveyor in an ongoing engineering or land surveying project, after contracts have been awarded to such other engineer or land surveyor.
(e) The engineer or land surveyor shall not attempt to compete with another engineer or land surveyor for employment by reducing his or her usual charges or by the use of unethical practices.
(f) The engineer or land surveyor shall not participate in or implement procurement practices (bid submittals) which do not first determine the qualifications of the engineer or land surveyor prior to entering into fee negotiations for services being sought. An engineer or land surveyor having submitted a statement of qualification and performance data, and having first been judged as the qualified individual or firm to provide the services required for the proposed project, may proceed to negotiate a contract with a client and establish compensation or fees for the required services.
Should the engineer or land surveyor be unable to negotiate a satisfactory contract with the client for any reason, the engineer or land surveyor shall withdraw from further consideration for the engineering or land surveying services. Another engineer or land surveyor may then be selected for negotiations of a contract for the services on the stated project.
Examples include but are not limited to, simultaneous negotiations or solicitation of fee proposals by the client from two or more engineers or land surveyors constitutes ÛÏbiddingÛ and participation by a licensee is prohibited.
Dickering is fine as long as it's a 2 way street. We negotiate fee, we negotiate scope. Of course there are some scope items that are non-negotiable.
I think historically, "Dickering" was customary and polite when doing business transactions.
In other words two people coming to an agreement as to what was fair - both people leave feeling like they made a good deal.
As a result it was also probably customary to ask more than your bottom price, so you could give a little so as to appear understanding and polite.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 423903, member: 6939 wrote: Over the past couple of weeks, I have issued some proposals for various surveying services, only for the potential client to come back and try to dicker with me on the price.
If you're doing fixed-price commodity-style proposals, it's only natural that the client thinks that you quoted the MSRP to see whether he was gullible or not. It's just like buying cars, new and used. The buyer, I mean client, assumes that the seller, I mean surveyor, has built some margin into the quote to allow him or her to drop it a few points to close the deal.
Steve Gilbert, post: 423959, member: 111 wrote: From the Alabama BELS Cannon of Ethics:
330-X-14-.05 Practice. (Canon IV.) The engineer or land surveyor shall endeavor to build a practice and professional reputation on the merit of his or her services as follows:
(a) The engineer or land surveyor shall not offer, or promise to pay or deliver, directly or indirectly, any commission, political contribution, gift, favor, gratuity, benefit or
reward as an inducement to secure any specific professional engineering or professional land surveying work or assignment; providing and excepting, however, that an engineer or land surveyor may pay a duly licensed employment agency its fee or commission for securing engineering or land surveying employment in a salaried position.
(b) The engineer or land surveyor shall not solicit professional employment by self-laudatory advertising, or in any manner contrary to high professional standards.
(c) Licensees shall not falsify or permit misrepresentation of their, or their associates, academic or professional qualifications. They shall not misrepresent or exaggerate their degree of responsibility in prior assignments nor the complexity of said assignments. Presentations incident to the solicitation of employment or business shall not misrepresent pertinent facts concerning employers, employees, associates, joint ventures, or past accomplishments.
(d) The engineer or land surveyor shall not supplant, nor attempt to supplant, directly or indirectly, another engineer or land surveyor in an ongoing engineering or land surveying project, after contracts have been awarded to such other engineer or land surveyor.
(e) The engineer or land surveyor shall not attempt to compete with another engineer or land surveyor for employment by reducing his or her usual charges or by the use of unethical practices.
(f) The engineer or land surveyor shall not participate in or implement procurement practices (bid submittals) which do not first determine the qualifications of the engineer or land surveyor prior to entering into fee negotiations for services being sought. An engineer or land surveyor having submitted a statement of qualification and performance data, and having first been judged as the qualified individual or firm to provide the services required for the proposed project, may proceed to negotiate a contract with a client and establish compensation or fees for the required services.
Should the engineer or land surveyor be unable to negotiate a satisfactory contract with the client for any reason, the engineer or land surveyor shall withdraw from further consideration for the engineering or land surveying services. Another engineer or land surveyor may then be selected for negotiations of a contract for the services on the stated project.
Examples include but are not limited to, simultaneous negotiations or solicitation of fee proposals by the client from two or more engineers or land surveyors constitutes ÛÏbiddingÛ and participation by a licensee is prohibited.
Thanks Steve
After explaining all that goes into a survey I gave a guy a price of $1250 for a survey, he said "Could you make it $1000?"
I said, "No. $1500. I just explained why it costs that."
But you just said $1250!"
"Yeah, but you turned it down. Now it's $1500."
He said, "OK, $1250."
I said, "No. $1600."
"But you just said $1500!"
"Yep, and you turned that down, too. It's costing me money to stand here and dicker with you."
I didn't get the job (I didn't really want to do it anyway) but I sure had fun.
Sometimes, if it's an easy job and we just want it. But not much. Maybe 1100 to 1025 or such. But not more.
And usually we add 100 to our original proposal to build in some 'negotiation leeway' if they try to negotiate.
Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk
On buying cars, I can remember buying my first car (a '71 XY Falcon) circa 1990 and asking a few questions:
Me: Has it been used to tow things?
Seller: No, never, no, no. No.
A few questions later.
Me: So you don't know if it's a good tow car?
Seller: It's a great tow car, we tow our boat with it all the time.
Maybe that's one difference between car sellers and professionals. (I still bought the car though).