Court Exhibit

> Does anyone see a problem with showing a scanned image(stamped) of another engineer or surveyor on your own plan?

In a word, No. No problem at all.

Larry P

Yes - and I would suspect that if the other side's attorney is any good he'd object and probably get your exhibit rejected. Get the other plan admitted on its own.

Also, some state board's would have a problem of your using someone else's work without permission.

Well Larry, I guess we disagree again.

If the stamped plan has been filed at the local County Courthouse it is a public document. If it is stamped but not filed, you can expect trouble at the least. Incorporating it as part of your exhibit is inviting problems. Why not just enlarge it by itself if it is a public document?

Consider K.I.S.S.

Listen to the Professor.

B-)

I see we have a difference of opinion on this. Cool. Good way to start the debate.

Keep in mind that a court exhibit is not a stand alone document.

It is not subject to the minimum technical standards set forth in your states rules.

An exhibit is an ancillary tool to help you convey information to the jury. Exhibits are not meant to be stand alone documents.

Have you (after a thorough review of the subject matter) reached a different conclusion than the expert retained by the other side? If so, then what better way to demonstrate the essence of the difference than to draft your conclusions and contentions on top of theirs*?

A key point you said was that the work you seek to incorporate is in fact a final work product of the other professional. I know it is a final work product because it was signed and sealed. Were it a preliminary product it would not have been signed and sealed.

No way, no how should you incorporate the preliminary work of another professional into your work unless and until it is made final by seal and signature or by introduction into testimony.

*Notice I never said you should say they are wrong. Simply indicate that the knowledge you have at your disposal lead you to conclusions that are different than the conclusions reached by the other professional. Who is right and who is wrong is for the judge and or jury to decide.

Larry P

> Yes - and I would suspect that if the other side's attorney is any good he'd object and probably get your exhibit rejected. Get the other plan admitted on its own.
>
> Also, some state board's would have a problem of your using someone else's work without permission.

On this one thing, my good friend Dave Ingram and I agree. You do need a clean, clear copy of the entire plat plat (signed and sealed) by the other expert.

But, once that is admitted into evidence you are good to introduce your exhibit drafted on top of theirs in a way that makes it clear what is yours and what was theirs. I found the best way to do this is to draft my work on clear film and overlay it on top of the other work. If you can, showing your contention in color is also an effective way to communicate your testimony.

Larry P

> If the stamped plan has been filed at the local County Courthouse it is a public document. If it is stamped but not filed, you can expect trouble at the least. Incorporating it as part of your exhibit is inviting problems. Why not just enlarge it by itself if it is a public document?
>
> Consider K.I.S.S.

I understand what you are saying Professor Mungnier, but I am at a loss as to why there might be trouble in using the final work of a fellow professional in this manner. Preliminary work (unsigned and w/o stamp) absolutely do not use as it may not represent a final work product. But if the document bears the signature and seal of the professional who issued the document, the public has a right to rely on that information as representing the professional opinion of the PLS on the date the document was issued. (If the PLS has changed their mind that will come out during the case.)

Larry P

I have read all these posts and have only one question: Has this other work been filed with the Recorder's or Registrar's office, or whomever takes these?
If so, doesn't that make it public record? If yes, then I cannot see how there could be a problem showing it - ethical, polite or not [that's another issue].

Other than that, I cannot and should not proffer an opinion.
E

Rules of Evidence do vary from state-to-state, and I am not an attorney. Furthermore, a signed and stamped document by a registered professional MAY have been subsequently corrected and/or modified. (Are you absolutely certain such has not occurred?) Using it as a separate exhibit is a safer way to introduce as evidence in Court rather than physically incorporating it into your own signed and sealed document.

Once it's recorded, it's public. Just make sure nothing else has subsequently been recorded as a correction/modification. The other side is entitled to epiphanies, too.

Incorporating another professional's work product has significant liabilities in that if part of all of the other's work is wrong and it's in your work product ... then part of your product is then wrong. What part is the Jury supposed to take as gospel and what part do they ignore? Do you really want the Jury to make such decisions on such a combination of opinions reflected within your own work product?

An IQ of 100 is an average of the population. What are the chances that everyone on the Jury has a three-digit IQ?

You can discus it with your Boss, Ultimately he is the boss and should take responsibility. If you are acting on your own as a PLS then it is your call after reading the various responses.

Joe

> Furthermore, a signed and stamped document by a registered professional MAY have been subsequently corrected and/or modified.

You find out really fast in the discovery phase whether or not the other side has modified previously existing documents. If the other side has had a change of heart and agree with you now, things tend to get settled really fast.

>(Are you absolutely certain such has not occurred?) Using it as a separate exhibit is a safer way to introduce as evidence in Court rather than physically incorporating it into your own signed and sealed document.

My own signed and sealed? I do not sign and seal court exhibits. The purpose for signing and sealing a plat or other document is to authenticate it as your work. That is not necessary on a court exhibit because I will be there testifying that it is in fact, my work and is used as an ancillary item to help demonstrate the process used to reach the conclusion(s) reached.

Also, when incorporating the work of another into your exhibits, it is imperative that the PLS make it unmistakable which work belongs to which professional. (Thus the use of clear overlays and color as mentioned in another part of this thread.)

> Once it's recorded, it's public. Just make sure nothing else has subsequently been recorded as a correction/modification. The other side is entitled to epiphanies, too.
>

Agreed. All a part of due diligence.

> Incorporating another professionals work product has significant liabilities in that if part of all of the other's work is wrong and it's in your work product ... then part of your product is then wrong.

Clients seldom end up going to a trial unless there is disagreement between professionals. But like I said above, at all times the exhibit will be clear in what is my work and what is work by someone else. As you well know the rules of ethics in every state I know require that we be truthful in all reports and testimony. To me that is part of making certain that work by others is attributed to them and my work is clearly indicated as being mine.

>What part is the Jury supposed to take as gospel and what part do they ignore? Do you really want the Jury to make such decisions on such a combination of opinions reflected within your own work product?

The idea is to contrast the points where the opinions of the professional differ. If we agree on 90% of the facts, then there is no point in arguing those facts. Plus I never ask a Jury to ignore facts or opinions. Just to place them in proper context and weigh for themselves what to believe or not.

>
> An IQ of 100 is an average of the population. What are the chances that everyone on the Jury has a three-digit IQ?

I will go further and suggest that the average IQ of the people who are not smart enough to get out of jury duty isn't all that high. This is why the exhibit is a part of the testimony, not a substitute for testimony.

Larry P

I would think that you would want your drawing to be admitted into evidence on its own merits and stand by itself.

I have never used any portion of another's drawing in my drawings.

Rather, I have used my own linework to show where I've found the other surveyor's findings in relation to my findings.

Go to the chalk board and impress the court before drawing over and around another's drawing.

0.02

Is your boss the legal counsel? If yes, follow his lead. If no, see the guy who has to argue the stuff.

I wouldn't attach to my drawing. But, the drawing can be brought in through any expert that "relied upon it" during the decision making process of the project. Even if you just used it to determine it was wrong.

Think about "Usual course of business" and the tools necessary to make your decisions. All that can be brought in.

I don't know if there is a slight difference that should be clarified or not. But if it should;

there is your "Plat" that is the sketch and the notes as a result of your survey. That should be signed and sealed and meet the standards of your state. I would be safe, and not introduce another person's plat into that document. That plat could be introduced as evidence in a court trial and be assigned and exhibit number.

Then there are exhibits that are introduced as evidence which might be sketches specifically colored, formed, blown up to a specific area, or otherwise created to emphasize a point that the attorney wants to introduce a picture of. That sketch is not a land survey plat necessarily, and may have different layers, or parts of your drawing. As a court exhibit to emphasize a point, I can see where the attorney might use other experts signed plats to help show their point. You might just be working as an expert cad draftsperson to help the attorney draw his sketch/show his pictures.

At least that's my take on the issue.

Larry, I have one question

If Mr. B incorporates Mr. A's work into his document, would Mr. B be violating copyright laws if the Mr. A has correctly attached a copyright to his earlier document?

Larry, I have one question

Just one question? Come on man, you can be more imaginative than that. Come up with a dozen good questions next time. 😉

> If Mr. B incorporates Mr. A's work into his document, would Mr. B be violating copyright laws if the Mr. A has correctly attached a copyright to his earlier document?

First, understand that I am not a lawyer. What I am is a goofy looking guy who spends way too much time thinking about this stuff. Combine that with 30+ years experience and it adds up to a guy with a point of view who isn't afraid to open his mouth and say what he thinks.

The fact all of this is happening as a part of a court proceeding is key. Mr. A is doing nothing at all to change the work of Mr. B. The idea is to compare and contrast the areas where the professionals have reached different conclusions. Mr. A will do nothing to claim the work of Mr. B as his own work. That would defeat the purpose.

My opinion is copyrights have nothing whatever to do with this situation. B's work stands for what it is. A's work stands for what it is. The fact a jury is going to be presented with different opinions based on those works is what matters.

Larry P

Thanks to all for the comments, and sorry I haven't responded to now. I had about 10 other exhibits and two affadavits to prepare by...now, so just haven't had the time.

The other plan was public record, stamped, and had not been altered in any way. I tend to agree with Larry in this situation, but I'll admit, I didn't like the idea when first presented to me.

Anyway, turns out, after all of that, we are scrapping that exhibit. Cant say that I'm disappointed.

Good arguments all around by the way.

-V