We have been contemplating some renovation work on the homestead here in PDX and have been talking to contractors. All of them are reluctant to work on anything other than a hourly rate with no restrictions and billings at regular intervals. Estimates offered reluctantly with broad ranges and for budgeting purposes only. No NTEs or fixed fees. Pay as you go or forget it.
Hmmm....
Just wait until the current bubble bursts and the contractors will change their tune.
I can vouch for the contractors' sides having done this kind of thing from very small stuff to the entire house from basement to rooftop (including the roof).
The problem with giving a lump sum cost on major work is that you simply don't know what you are going to get into once you tear out the old.
As a case in point: me and a buddy were going to replace two sliding glass doors with new ones. The seals had broken on the old ones and they became so milky you basically couldn't see through them.
No problem with that. Both of us had done this before and decided to help speed up some overall progress and come in and do them both on a Saturday afternoon. The replacements were the same size so we weren't expecting to have to do any re-framing. First one went in just fine. The 2nd is where we lost our a$$es. We knew that right away as soon as the old frame came out.
Half of the framing and all the sub-flooring was rotted out - BAD! There went the rest of our afternoon - just on the framing. It was plenty dark by the time we got it done.
On that same job, the lady kept adding work as soon as she saw how good something looked once we were done.
That's my take on it. As the contractor sometimes you can make out really good, but the norm is you'll barely break even.
E.
> ....The problem with giving a lump sum cost on major work is that you simply don't know what you are going to get into once you tear out the old....
This applies equally to surveying. And scopes change.
I don't have a problem with paying craftsmen by the hour. If you pay a lump sum the fellas run through their work like their pants are on fire. If they start running out of money they start calling everything "extra".
My poor old house was built when radio was in its infancy. By the time I interview jobbers, I've knocked a hole or two here and there and know pretty much what we're going to run into. I guess technically they're just subs...I'm the GC.
I had some attic drop-stairs installed. There was electric running all over the place above the ceiling. I had the carpenter come out and expose the hole. I then called the electrician. I then had the carpenter come back and finish.
They both did bang up work and told me they wish everybody had things planned that well.
Perhaps an hourly rate with a not to exceed would be a fair way to handle it?
Gives room for overlooked issues yet keeps the contractor honest by not allowing them to drag their feet.
Really I think this results in better work with less shortcuts.
My thought is not why do they do that? but rather why can't we do that?
It's a tough way to look at from either view.
As a contract programmer it has cut [deep] both ways for me.
A few times I've given a few hours to a few days to fix something for someone.
A time or two I solved it in a few minutes and told them to forget about it. Most treat to something whether a couple cases of beer or hand me a couple c-notes on the spot. Those were people I made real happy real quick and they were happy to do something for me. I was happy to accept the graciousness.
A couple of other time I bit off way more than was told and walked away. Fortunately, as a programmer, my loss is only time and aggravation.
I wish you luck.
E.
> We have been contemplating some renovation work on the homestead here in PDX and have been talking to contractors. All of them are reluctant to work on anything other than a hourly rate with no restrictions and billings at regular intervals. Estimates offered reluctantly with broad ranges and for budgeting purposes only. No NTEs or fixed fees. Pay as you go or forget it.
>
> Hmmm....
We are going through this at the very moment; home renovations on time & material agreement. Pay the invoice in full every week. We are not getting a good deal. Final cost will be 50% more than planned. I agree that contractor cannot give a lump sum price without knowing what they are going to find out before the demolition stage is done. However, where we made our mistake is here: once the old is removed, a contractor should be able to give a lump sum price. We should have set up two contracts: demolition on time and material, renovation on lump sum.
Our contractor is doing a very good job but the bottom line is: the longer it takes, the more money he makes. And because invoices are paid in full weekly, that the job is not completed but progressing, we fork money out.
I will never hire another contractor under the current terms. That's for sure.
Contracting 101 says the door is in scope the rest is extra. What is wrong with asking for an extra?
Do you have drawings/contract to define the scope of work?
> Do you have drawings/contract to define the scope of work?
We do not. If it would help we would prepare some. The demolition has been done.
But that is not the point of my posting.
> > Do you have drawings/contract to define the scope of work?
> We do not. If it would help we would prepare some. The demolition has been done.
>
> But that is not the point of my posting.
Three suggestions:
Break the job into a series of tasks. Hire only for one task at the time.
keep a good eye on labor time. A couple of guys running to the hardware store is costly. Get a way to track time daily.
Consider hiring a project manager to control the work.