Had this happen today. Did a large boundary with some large discrepancies between the deed boundary and the occupied boundary. I had a note to the effect of what I had found and what my opinion was on the issues were so I could at least say I had informed my client. Regardless, the attorney calls me in today and tells me to remove my note, it's not a statement of fact it's a statement of opinion. I tell him the entire piece of paper is a statement of my opinion. To which he looked puzzled, but then again, said "remove this note". I told him, how am I supposed to do my job if I'm not reporting my findings and adequately addressing them to my client via. a note. This was his exact words: "If you want to get paid, remove the damn note". Now, I'd already been paid for the job. I simply told him I wasn't removing the note, and not to address me in that manner and I left. Well, as usual, it's holding up the deal and the buyer's freaking out. Am I cutting my nose off to spite my face here (I've been known to do that)? I mean, are we letting attorneys tell us what we can and cannot put on OUR surveys?! What I have thought of doing is removing the note, but putting a disclaimer that said note was removed at the request of said attorney. Also, can you file a complaint about attorneys that threaten not to pay, or use threatening tone and manner. Isn't that unprofessional? Anyhow, just looking for some input. Thanks guys.
This fellow needs an education, but he won't accept it from you or anyone else, most likely. Of course, he can threaten to do ....................... (insert danged near anything). That doesn't mean he has the right to follow through.
You might point out that what he is asking you to do is essentially the same as lying. Lying is a no no in our profession, but maybe not his. Even if he had any control over a payment to be made to you, any reasonable judge would rule against him when you sued him for non-payment.
You are correct that surveys summarize our opinions
> Had this happen today. Did a large boundary with some large discrepancies between the deed boundary and the occupied boundary. I had a note to the effect of what I had found and what my opinion was on the issues were so I could at least say I had informed my client.
My opinion is that probably the better practice in a situation like that is to write a report to accompany the map and to reference the report on the certificate that appears upon the map, i.e. "this map, taken together with Surveyor's Report No. ____, dated ____, prepared by the undersigned to accompany this map, is a true and correct representation of the results of a survey performed ...", or something like that.
I mean, if the discrepancies are large, then the report should discuss them so that there is no doubt about what you've concluded as to probable origins, history, and possible implications for the future purchaser of the tract. In short, tell your client and the other parties what you would want to know if you were buying the tract. If there are title problems with land that someone else is claiming as their own, now is the proper time to make sure that everyone understands what that means for the transaction.
If Mr. Attorney doesn't like your report, then you can ask him what exactly he would like to hide from the purchaser and ask him to put his request in writing. Even on the subject of the map note, I'd ask him to put his demand in writing. I'll bet he won't. I wouldn't, of course delete the note, but a letter from him demanding it would put him in a very weak position to be demanding anything from anyone.
> is a true and correct representation of
As a side note, I would never use the phrase "true and correct" in a professional work product even if I considered the statement unassailable. The liability exposure adhering to such a big target just isn't worth the clarity. There's always a softer way of saying the same thing without coming off like a weasel.
"Lying is a no no in our profession, but maybe not his."
> > is a true and correct representation of
>
> As a side note, I would never use the phrase "true and correct" in a professional work product even if I considered the statement unassailable. The liability exposure adhering to such a big target just isn't worth the clarity. There's always a softer way of saying the same thing without coming off like a weasel.
Okay, I'll bite. How would you say that the map truly and correctly represents the results of your survey without using the words "true" or "correct"? The key thing is that "true and correct" modify "representation of the results of a survey", not the actual property itself.
Don't bear the weight of a sour real estate deal on your shoulders. You did your professional best to provide a concise survey. You didn't screw up the property, you merely placed a record of your survey on paper.
As for junk-yard-dog attorneys, they're a dime a dozen. If he were talking to me it would have been a short conversation. I would have hung up on him right after I told him to kiss my ass.
...Or you could roll over and do what the mean man wants. I've actually done both in my career. You sleep a lot better at night sticking by your guns. Really.
Try it. I did. I've actually gotten good at it. 😉
"Cash and Kent"
Advice Column above are very good ways to think about it.
Once I had a similar situation. There was a 20' gap in some deeds. I drew the plat, and hatched in the gap. During a subsequent survey, I went to a neighbor, and mentioned the gap. They said NO we own it. Huh? back to the bedroom, up in the closet, and out came the shoe box, full of deeds. Dug around, and said HERE! And they had a non recorded deed to it. They had a whole pile of non recorded deeds.
At this point, HAD I given the gap to the ad-joiner, (and it was fenced by the ad-joiner, survey number one, in sequence), I could have been liable.
So, I think it is 'mportant, if there are big gaps, to mention them. And remember somebody somewhere MIGHT have a deed to them. And, a non recorded deed can be valid. Also, a recorded deed, that is MIS indexed, by the clerk is valid too.
N
I agree with Kent. First get it in writing from the attorney on his letterhead.
Then consider revising the drawing retitled "Exhibit" not survey. Add a note that refers to the attorney's letter and explains what the exhibit does and does not show.
You might also consider invoicing for the extra Exhibit.
technically speaking, in TX a "certification" is not required, just your seal and signature. most folks like to see something akin to a certification, but that doesn't mean you have to offer one. if you do offer a certification, it should be a part of your contract and not varied from regardless of what some nonpaying yahoo that is not a party to the contract wants.
§663.18. Certification.
(a) The Registered Professional Land Surveyor shall personally apply his/her seal and signature only to final documents released to the public representing professional land surveying as defined in the Act. The professional land surveyor shall maintain control and possession over his/her seal at all times.
(b) If the land surveyor certifies, or otherwise indicates, that his/her product or service meets a standard of practice in addition to that promulgated by the Texas Board of Professional Land Surveying, then the failure to so meet both standards may be considered by the Board, for disciplinary purposes, to be misleading the public.
> technically speaking, in TX a "certification" is not required, just your seal and signature.
The real purpose of a certification is to describe the scope and any limits of the work. Otherwise, just applying a seal and signature leaves too much room for misunderstanding, in my opinion. I don't think it is a good practice at all.
For example, in just about any transaction where land title insurance is involved, the surveyor will be relying upon the commitment for land title insurance provided by the insurer to identify all easements and other matters of record to which the property is subject. The certificate is a very good place to mention that fact and to disclaim that the surveyor has independently performed that research.
I agree, Frank. Admittedly I don't sign a lot of work, perhaps half a dozen per year or so. When I became registered in 2003, I decided my general statement would be:
Surveyed by me on Month Day, Year.
Shawn Billings
Registered Professional Land Surveyor
No. 5688
Only on ALTA/ACSM surveys have I stated anything differently. I have yet to have one complaint regarding this minimalist statement. I went to a James Noble Johnson seminar shortly before I was registered where he advocated for this and it made good sense.
I sure do appreciate your honesty, Paden.
Read the article at the following address about the statement "true & correct"
Basically we should certify to a standard only.
Yes he can.
Do not threaten him because he knows how to make you pay.
There job is to fight for their client.
Bullies, mostly.
> When I became registered in 2003, I decided my general statement would be:
>
> Surveyed by me on Month Day, Year.
>
>
>
> Shawn Billings
> Registered Professional Land Surveyor
> No. 5688
>
> I went to a James Noble Johnson seminar shortly before I was registered where he advocated for this and it made good sense.
The obvious problem with that is that the seal and signature is an unqualified warranty of the correctness and reliability of every detail shown on the map, including possibly information that was compiled from other sources. You've probably buried the scope and limits of the survey in some note on the map instead of putting it in the certificate where no one can say that they didn't read it. The main item that comes to mind are the servitudes and appurtenances of some property that you've surveyed for which some title insurance company should take the credit.
Jim Johnson and I were friends and when we would go out to lunch and he would ask me for all sorts of information about surveying. He definitely had many blind spots when it came to professional surveying practice.
:good:
"Cash and Kent"
Non-recorded anything is NOT valid in Louisiana. No such thing as a deed in Louisiana. If it's not recorded in the Parish Courthouse, it didn't happen. Period.
> The obvious problem with that is that the seal and signature is an unqualified warranty of the correctness and reliability of every detail shown on the map, including possibly information that was compiled from other sources. You've probably buried the scope and limits of the survey in some note on the map instead of putting it in the certificate where no one can say that they didn't read it. The main item that comes to mind are the servitudes and appurtenances of some property that you've surveyed for which some title insurance company should take the credit.
>
> Jim Johnson and I were friends and when we would go out to lunch and he would ask me for all sorts of information about surveying. He definitely had many blind spots when it came to professional surveying practice.
He seemed like a really good guy. I never knew him personally, but appreciated his mind as an attorney with a real passion for land law (an uncommon breed in my experience). I have no doubts he had blind spots, he also struck me as a consummate student (as your reflections on your lunch conversations seem to concur).
Regarding statements on plats, I just haven't found that they really mean that much. Your mileage may (and apparently has) vary(ied).
He can ask you to do anything. You as a professional are not obligated to oblige him.
In this situation, since you've already been paid, I'd have laughed at him.