the client estimated that he had forked over $40k in legal fees to date. Presumably his neighbor had done the same ...
?ÿit was settled to my clients satisfaction within weeks thereafter.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
I don't know how long the boundary line was, but regardless, that was an expensive strip of land.?ÿ As usual, it would have been much to everyone's benefit to compromise.
I??m not licensed in Idaho and I won??t offer any specific advice or validate what costs are there. After reading through the OP??s post I would suggest that there may be a context issue. Going on the presumption that these parcels are based on any kind of aliquot part (640 acres was mentioned), you really can??t survey just the existing parcel corners and see if they dimensionally seem right unto themselves. To really survey something like this a responsible surveyor would likely need to go out to the sections corners to make certain that the existing parcel corners are actually true in relation to the larger section and original parent parcel. It??s not just a simple matter of collecting a 30 second GPS shot on the corners you point out to the surveyor. Without casting a wider net, the surveyor putting his license number on the work for all time to come, will have no way of knowing if the section was broken down correctly and is in harmony with the surrounding parcels. I really don??t see how any survey outfit could manage more than a quick and dirty survey for $2400. Just doesn??t add up. Throw in dense tree canopy and having to run lines on the ground conventionally and there will be some very significant time involved. When you consider the legal expenses of a boundary lawsuit, both from the surveyor and your perspective, $16k could well be a bargain. That said you should shop around, but these things may not be straightforward to the average layman. Good luck!
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
It's impossible to guess all the variables at play. It is reasonable to say that first survey sounds unrealistically cheap. Maybe the guy had most of the information already and passed on saving. Maybe he lowballed it and did a crap survey. Nonway for us to know.
Moving forward, the new price doesn't sound out of line at all. By the time you tie the controlling corners, run the lines, research and prepare the corner records then record thr survey 16k might be a little light.
It was suggested earlier in the thread a new surveyor could just set stakes along the lines as already marked. That practice in Idaho will likely end up in front of the Board or a Judge. The suggestion to mark it yourself is equally as bad. You cannot mark boundaries without a license unless you own all the property both sides of the line or corner. Even then it's a terrible idea as you set yourself up for fights after selling later.
@mark-mayer we had a timber trespass case where the private owner??s Forester used a handheld GPS??he was 200 feet off into the state forest in places. Fortunately for them their logger must??ve sensed something was wrong (maybe the first flag was 30?ø off bearing in 50 feet or so was it) because not many trees were taken over the true line. This is deep in the redwood forest.
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?ÿThe majority of the costs is generally in the records research rather than the fieldwork. If it was freshly surveyed yesterday with maps filed, by a reputable firm, it might be able to be done for under $1000. If it was recorded in 1880, with no work done since, with ambiguous property descriptions, it might be bid for $20k, with the surveyor still losing money in the project.?ÿ
When in doubt, ask your friends and neighbors if they recommend anyone. If nothing comes from them, get three proposals and be wary of any that come in super high or super low.
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When we bought the one parcel, we also bought about half of the parcel next to it.?ÿ That parcel was a north/south parcel that ran alongside our east/west parcel.?ÿ All we did was extend the north property line of the east/west parcel to the east line of the north/south parcel and bought everything south of that.
that kinda sounds like a homeowner crafted legal description.
we need to see exactly what the Deeds say... copy please!
Depending on the terms that were used, and the specifics of the actual Township and Section, a Land Surveyor might have to do a full replacement and breakdown. Even in wide-open land with a clear sky above the bona fide controlling monuments... could be quite a bunch of work. Heavy timber? Wow.
Having existing things in the ground is a bonus only if they have some pedigree.
if they have some pedigree.
Also considering reliance by owners on all sides.
Where in Idaho is this?
Not even Javad.
I've gotten the upgraded Javad LS. And, moved up from T-2 on base, to T-3 on base. (This gives me full constellations).
I've not had to pull out total station in Arkansas, since I got Javad.
Tall dense timber, hills, mountains, everything. If it struggles, or runs slow, I shoot it 2x, or 3x.
Mark, it's most incredible. I've not tried it in 300' redwoods. And I'm sure that there are places on earth it would be more efficient to use conventional. But you should get a demo.?ÿ
Nate
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I've not had to pull out total station in Arkansas, since I got Javad.
No doubt that your Javad is very good, and no doubt that it is a lot better than anything available in 2009.?ÿ But in the instant circumstance it wasn't just the tree cover, it was also the deeply incised gorge that the Kalama River runs through. Not even Javad can cut through earth and rock.?ÿ ?ÿ
As a rule, when you get into trees, look up, and see maybe 50% blue sky among the needles and leaves, you might hope to get enough satellites for a fix. When you get under mature D.Fir and Western Red Cedar you will probably see less than 10% blue sky.?ÿ?ÿ
Put that gear in a little boat on an active river to run topo of the river bottom.?ÿ How many dollars of gear are you risking if the boat flips over?
The firm we first used was well established and had a great reputation.?ÿ I didn't set next to her when she did it, but a woman in the office said she would be doing all the "due diligence" and checking maps/deeds, etc.?ÿ The two guys who did the field work had their wazoo GPS unit ?ÿ The reason I say they are not an option is that in checking into them again for this project, I learned that recently there had been some changes in the office and many of their "good" surveyors had moved on/retired and the latest feedback on them was, let's say, not as glowing as the first time around.
Question, did you ever speak to the PLS that was in charge of your earlier survey??ÿ ?ÿ wazoo gps unit in a heavily treed site 6 years ago does not sound like a solid recipe for accuracy.?ÿ The PLS that conducted the original survey is the only one that can rely fully on the work they completed previously??ÿ Is He/She retired?
The 16k cost sounds steep the property is heavily treed and sounds like it would require a full/partial section breakdown. Depending on crew rates it may be a good deal.
As someone else has stated, setting points on a line (between two or more monuments) requires a record of survey in ID.?ÿ Basically, anytime you set points along a property line in ID you must prepare a record of survey.?ÿ I still hear of surveyor's that are unaware of this.
Using the previous firm is not an option.
Probably because they didn't charge enough to stay in business.
Also, 7 years ago this profession was in the grip of the great recession, which hit us especially hard. There were many surveyors doing the work at much below cost to make a house payment or just keep the lights on for one more month. So, the costs then and now are not comparable.?ÿ
Is what I was told about the previous survey being useless accurate?
Unless we saw the survey, had local knowledge of the area, and knew the surveyor that did the first survey, our opinions are pretty useless on this.
Does 16K for the job sound reasonable?
I would charge more than that.
I'm not hiring based on price, but was a little shocked at the price based on the cost of the first survey.?ÿ
That is happening a lot in our industry. For decades, prices stagnated. Then they contracted with the Great Recession. Now, enough of the surplus of surveyors (created by the booms in the 70's and 80's) have retired, and the market will bear a living wage.?ÿ
$16k may be reasonable, but the expectations are difficult to get around. Most of us do not make 8 times what we did 7 years ago (well, some surveyors may, since many didn't make much 7 years ago), and so we get suspicious when we see a high price tag.
Basically, 20 years of pent up inflation has hit our industry all at once, it seems.
You cannot mark boundaries without a license unless you own all the property both sides of the line or corner.
I always chuckle at this, when I think of all the boundaries clearly marked by fences set by people that may have no survey experience of any sort.
In the east sometimes the best evidence of the boundary line is a fence constructed by God knows who.?ÿ ?ÿ
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@dmyhill When owners build a fence they are generally following a boundary as marked or doing something stupid that may end up leading to an established boundary. If they are winging it without consent of the adjoiner they may be stting themselves up for an expensive education.
Regardless, in the context of the discussion my statement is true. In Idaho you cannot legally mark a boundary line if you don't own both sides of it.
own both sides of it.
so if I do own both sides; can I put the line where ever I want to? If I sell one of the lots, does the buyer have to accept the line, even though the deed says something different?
Let's say I own lots 9 and 10 in a platted subdivision; I build a fence along the common line about 40' into lot 9. Lot 10 is developed, lot 9 only has a tennis court. Both of the lots are large and the fence does not make either lot non-conforming.
If someone buys lot 9, where's the line?
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@dougie It would depend on the complete fact pattern and jurisdiction. If I sell you "Lot 9" that's probably what you will get. If I describe the property in some other fashion or we occupy as fenced long enough maybe not. In the end if you place your hopes in the fence you're probably going to spend far more than the value of the property (and a valid survey) to obtain clear title. Then you get to live next to an angry neighbor. If looking at the neighbor every day isn't bad enough, you also have to look in the mirror...
@dmyhill When owners build a fence they are generally following a boundary as marked or doing something stupid that may end up leading to an established boundary. If they are winging it without consent of the adjoiner they may be stting themselves up for an expensive education.
Regardless, in the context of the discussion my statement is true. In Idaho you cannot legally mark a boundary line if you don't own both sides of it.
I understand. It still makes me chuckle at the idea that only surveyors end up marking property lines. And in some sense, even if I clearly mark a property line, when the fence guy strings up a line and puts each post in the ground, they are marking the line in between whatever control I gave them.
In WA, at least, the provisions of such laws only seem to matter to those that care if they lose their licenses, (that includes me and MOST other PLS's).
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On another note, my understanding is that in some states you can survey your own property. Not sure how that works.