than mine is something that irks me. I recently put in a proposal for a survey. Client calls and says "Good news, we want you to go ahead with the survey but we want you to do it for $3500" (I proposed a fee of $4250). I ask if there is a change in the scope of the work and the reply is "no but $3500 is what we have budgeted for surveying, oh and can you get this done in a week?".
I bite my tongue and resist the urge to suggest that perhaps they should have consulted a surveyor before they made their budget...and inform them that my fee is as quoted for the scope of work as defined in the RFP and that the time frame clearly spelled out in my proposal is 10 business days, but if there are no problems/weather issues, I might be able to complete the project in a week, but I cannot make that a promise. Client then says they will have to see if they can get this approved (???? didn't they already review proposals?). When they call back to tell me they are sending over the signed contract for my proposed fee, client makes snide comment about "that's awful high wages for a week’s work".....GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, this client is a broker, the property is a multimillion dollar property and I know that their fee is going to be in the tens of thousands of dollars (if not six figures) and they are miffed that I might bill a little over $4k AND assume most of the liability for this deal??? I politely comment that they should see my expenses for a week...
Last month I put in a proposal of $1400 for a small survey. Client (buyer, not the agent) calls and wants to know if I would do the survey for less. No, I say, this my fee. Then I get a call from the agent asking if I would drop my fee a few hundred dollars. I explain to him that there probably isn’t $200 in profit in the job to begin with and if they have someone who will do the job for less, I certainly understand. "Oh no, we want you to do the work". Client sends me a signed contract, but has marked through my $1400 fee and wrote in $1200! I attempted to call them, but no answer...left message though. I get a call a couple of days later from the agent wanting to know if the survey was going to be ready for a closing the next Tuesday...I explain to him that I don't have a valid contract to do the work and what the client had done. He assures me that he will clear this up and asks me to please proceed with the work. A half hour later I get a faxed copy of a signed contract for my original fee.
What is it with people who seem to readily accept real estate commissions in the many thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for basically doing some advertising and "sales" work, but are so bothered by the idea that a professional surveyor might make a small fraction of that to come out to the site with $100k worth of equipment, physically map the site, review all of the documents that are involved, create a finished map AND accept most of the liability that goes with the transaction?
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I'm sure the agent would say that they don't make that kind of sale every week, and have overhead expenses too, and advertising costs an arm and a leg.
But the remarkable thing is that in most areas they have somehow managed to keep competition from lowering their fees to the starvation point, and without getting in trouble for price fixing. Even more so considering that the comparatively short training needed to get licensed isn't much of a barrier to entry and more competition.
I've always thought that surveyors worry way too much about this price fixing issue. Price fixing in the real estate industry is institutionalized. 6% is what you will pay EVERYWHERE except for a few flat fee brokerages that have popped up and those brokers are litterally blackballed by the rest of the industry. Other agents will not show houses listed by flat fee brokerages, PERIOD. Their 6% deal has lasted because it is the holy grail of real estate brokers (at least in residential). The ony deviation I've seen from this is that if your agent represents both the buyer and seller (and you have this stipulated in your agreement with them) they might agree to a 4% fee.
Surveyors should all openly publish their hourly rate schedules and we could do so without any fear of "price fixing" charges. The truth is that it is not illegal to publish your rates and even if all surveyors charged the same hourly rate, there would still be a great range in project fees from one firm to another. Heck, if I quote the exact same project on two different days I might give two different fees. This is because there are other factors than hourly rates that go into a proposal. Time frame, weather, time of year, how heavy my work load is, who the client is, etc. all play a part in coming up with a project fee. We shouldn't be afraid of publishing our rates...Not because of price fixing worries or because we might lose some competitive advantage. Neither is likely to be the case.
BobM,
It really has nothing to do with what you appear to be concerned with (IMHO). What you, and the rest of us, provide is a professional service. There are always certain sects of clients who will try to barter. It's life. Now from the standpoint of little things that frustrate...your dead on. It sounds as though you handled these situations in a business like and professional manner.
We all want to save money in one way or another. The Real Estate scene has always had this type of flavor for as long as I can remember. As a land surveyor I expect what happened to you on constant basis. I think your post was more of a nice way to vent. We all have to do that from time to time. If you stick to your guns...most of the time you will get want you wanted. Remember...Ya can't lose money on a project you never got.
Two things.
1. People accept realtors fees because those realtors bring them a check.
2. If people aren't bitching about your price, you aren't charging enough. So, I'd say you are just about at the right price with those two examples.
Simple Demographics
As the population becomes more urban and suburban there is an increasing percentage of potential clients who will NEVER view someone (no mater how educated or how much time and capital they've invested in their business) who drives up to their property in a truck and pulls a shovel out of the back as a professional who is due the same level of respect as their CPA or attorney.
And for all the talk of needing to "educate the public" I've come to the conclusion that, in the end, all they hear is "blah, blah, blah" and think that we're just running our mouths trying to justify what they perceive as our "exorbitant" rates.
I hear ya...people are always looking for a better deal. I like to haggle as much as the next person, but when conducting business with professional people, particularly professional commercial real estate people, it is disheartening to see this kind of attitude. To me it reveals and underlying lack of respect for my profession and what we do. Perhaps this attitude stems from the fact that in the real estate world they don't compete on the basis of fees, or perhaps it is because some of these people see surveyors as working with their hands and hence as tradesmen (or perhaps just a step above laborers), I don't know. I just know that when I see this kind of thing I dont' like it.
I find that most commercial real estate people do not suffer from this attitude. The cases I cited were the exceptions, at least in my experience. Engineers on the other hand...well we could burn up many threads on that topic. 😉
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6% ? Around here I think it is 7%
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> What is it with people who seem to readily accept real estate commissions in the many thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for basically doing some advertising and "sales" work, but are so bothered by the idea that a professional surveyor might make a small fraction of that to come out to the site with $100k worth of equipment, physically map the site, review all of the documents that are involved, create a finished map AND accept most of the liability that goes with the transaction?
Great Question
I've been asking the same thing for years
But yet - WE All just continue to allow ourselves to get beat up
Professional Surveyor?
HHHhhmmm
More like a trade - uh no - more like a Hobbyist
We are our own worst enemies, especially when it comes to fair & reasonable compensation.
Simple Demographics
> As the population becomes more urban and suburban there is an increasing percentage of potential clients who will NEVER view someone (no mater how educated or how much time and capital they've invested in their business) who drives up to their property in a truck and pulls a shovel out of the back as a professional who is due the same level of respect as their CPA or attorney.
>
BINGO!
I disagree. I think BobM showed,in his post, he would not allow that to happen. He stood his ground. In the big picture it may happen more than what has been discussed in this post.
We? Nope..some don't and won't. My hats off to them. Professional? Yes..we are. We are not a tradesman or a hobbyist.
Sometimes folks here post as a way to vent. The trend may be different in your area. I have never held myself to anything but a professional.
Simple Demographics
I disagree, perhaps because all of my clients come from referrals and hence they tend to see me as a professional problem solver, highly recommended. When I'm out surveying I look as grubby and tired as you can imagine, and my clients understand that. I continue to be grateful for my decision years ago to avoid all advertising.
Bruce
I took a great deal of advice/info from you, and other posters like Dan Beardslee, RADU and Mark Plog just to name a few, and modeled my business on that advice and it has been tremendously successful for me.
Like you, my work is all by referral; my phone number is and always has been unlisted. I credit this strategy as a big reason why the kinds of incidents I posted about in this thread are exceptions rather than the rule. I am living proof of just how valuable a resource this community is and has been. I would never have been as successful if it were not for this community and the people who contribute to it. The collective experience and wisdom contained here is greater than you will find in any university or text book. It is all there for the asking. I'm glad to see you are still contributing Bruce.
Thank you for all the help you have provided over the years and good luck to you and yours from me and mine.
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> Sometimes folks here post as a way to vent. The trend may be different in your area. I have never held myself to anything but a professional.
Sometimes....
Heck yes, this is the place (for me) to let steam off.
Having said that -
It makes me want to repeat something a fellow surveyor posted a while ago.
I'm tired of
""working 60Hr weeks, every week
being beet up over price for every project
clients that expect a project 2 days before you promised it
having less resources and money than I did 5 years ago
not being able to give raises to employees
the banker calling and stopping in to see me every month
working for realtors
hoping that next week / next moth will be better
architects who want a DWG of a survey you did 3 years ago
clients that say 'I'd love to use you but can you drop your fee'
making less money than a plumber
clients that don't pay their bills
being looked at as a blue collar worker
working for realtors
having to cut my prices to secure a project
feeling like I'm on the edge of precipice
being sick to my tummy twice a month during payroll
hoping that next year is better""
It's not getting any better for any of us private practitioners
In fact, I know of 4 (more) guys who have gone out of business recently
-- A horrible thought --
If I can just hold out a little while longer, the attrition rate will provide for more work at higher paying rates.
At the expense of watching others go under...
Gidday Bob
Was getting ready to respond to the thread and then read my name in your post. Thank you for the compliment.
I am posting to congratulate you for your professional stance.
I have just returned from a chat with a young fellow , half hour pre research, then 1/4 to deliver opinion and send him on his way to get the process moving. Put it down to "advertising" with no cost out lay , but will get referrals and the fellow coming back if he can overcome the hurdles that I outlined.
Yes call a plumber and he wants a call out fee......
Perhaps its the old phart in me, but have always been generous in pre advice. perhaps that i why my hourly charge rate is higher...like Mr Small's...
Getting back to Bob's examples. it is bight lip and say I gave you my best shot the first time!
Perhaps if the overall project is say million dollars and interest rate is 10% then 100K interest pa equals $2K week " if I save you one week time by jumping into your job now or prioritizing job through process so you can finish one week early I save you $2K ...and you want to screw me for piddly few hundred $ that requires then for me to fit your job in when I am ready and you are happy to pay the interest on your money while you wait.... Some times clients are just too smart for their own good!
RADU
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