precolumbian boundary markers are rare even in europe
in fact the 6 described here as serving in sweden since the 11th century
http://tinyurl.com/3gjxohx
are not just the potentially oldest in the world
but the only precolumbians i have ever heard of anywhere
note the only exemplar
if not the only actually recovered monument of the bunch
& thus the present global rock of ages apparent
is a balancing rock
but for a handful of standouts like these
the barnstable rocks would be outstandingly ancient anywhere in the world
traditional societies in the few parts of the world that were never overrun by europeans might have a chance of outdating these present old world & new world recordholders respectively
to the best of my knowledge & belief
i dont suppose guinness would have any of it tho
An interesting treatise on reserarch intro some (reputedly) very old boundary markers was http://www.amazon.com/Boundary-Stelae-Akhentaten-Studies-Egyptology/dp/0710304641
Though they do not rely on carbon dating alone, but more on other references; I am absolutely sure you will reject this one.
Also, I am sure you will refute any notion that any lands at all referenced in the domeday book (1086)can be referenced or evidenced by rock boundary fences (the dominant form of permanant boundary in the day) could have ever been later coincident intentianally with civil boundaries.
Of course any mention of ancient boundary fences, cairns or even markers with regards to ancient China would have to be rejected because one might argue that in the current geopolitical system in China today all lands are theoretical and communla and therefore no boundary could be still in use (like great walls of which there were many more than the most obvious one).
Markers use for various feifdoms could not possibly have erver been utilized when various civil boundaries of cities, parishes, states, counties, shires etc were described could they? take a short hike on Miyajima Island, or in Nara or the Kyber pass and open your eyes and mind.
So what exactly are you trying to say? Your reply is a bit byzantine.
heavens
far from rejecting i would joyfully embrace any sure or even any likely single instance of any of these you could point me to
what do you take me for anyway
what you describe is exactly what i would like to see
Byzantine Empire might be a goofd place to research as well.
Sorry there was a bit of good natured exchanges on the subject of ancient boundary legacies a few weeks back.
Was having a bit of fun, but also throwing out some other possible leads (cause many others tended to get "thrown out") 🙂
Sorry, just some gentle ribbing per our past exchanges.
As none of us has such esocteric eveidence at our finger tips the subject is purely academic, and actually academia may have the answers.
I might suggest consulting with an Egyptologist on one civilization that placed markers. The Ordnance Survey of the UK must have some history buffs in their midsts, and surely the surveying associations of various countries with deep roots in history must have some accomplished surveying history buffs.
I wonder what evidence migh tbe acceptable to back up an assertion that several state boundaries in China fall along lines of the old boundary walls (e.g. Chu 656 later absorbed into various dynastic regions which have been rolled into modern era provinces sometimes sharing legacy boundaries and along wall lines in some places. Only reason I thought about that example is a facinating chat with some surveyors in China years ago that were proud of thier local 'evidence from antiquity'.
Greece, Byzantium, varous cultures that placed Stele, Roman roads as boundaries, just a few to think about.
Walls or other large items (besides natural calls) may be a better bet than marks like Roman Herma are that relatively small pillars or monuments would have almost certainly been stolen, destroyed, or otherwise removed and replaced.
Roads and walls called out as boundaries hold just as much weight in modern boundary law as stone scribed pillars or posts and caps. In ancient days "invisible" boundaries were not as practical as walls; boundaries with attitude.
yes several more good leads here thanxxx
but perhaps none so promising as 656 china
& as for what evidence might be acceptable for this
well certainly any specifics at all
as to location & circumstances if not the exact rock or rocks in question would be huge
& i would endeavor to pursue any such personal recollections or other clues as diligently as possible
since leads as warm as this have been very rare in my experience
not that all your other suggestions arent also valued mind you
IF...
you could leave out the "boundary" limitation.
Some of the oldest known "celestial" survey marks are the pyramids.
great thanxxx to all for your consideration & ideas
i will be pursuing all your leads in my ongoing search
& i agree china seems an especially hopeful area
still
tho the great wall today does at least roughly delineate much of the southern boundary of inner mongolia & parts of various other provinces too
nevertheless practically all of the extant wall is only ming dynasty
with very little of any earlier great walls noticeably surviving within it
nor anywhere else today for that matter
so china is not yet a very obvious hot prospect
for surpassing the age of the 11th century swedish rocks
i dont say it is impossible that some earlier rock or earthen wall has continuously marked some geopolitical edge in china that has survived in some contemporary political boundary
& indeed i am still encouraged by the report of the instance dating from 656 as well as by the seconding of the plausibility of that notion & the hot pursuit of it
yeay & thanxx
& i am not sure how much of a stickler i would be for a written record of the earliest possible date
i guess it depends on what actually turns up
best available circumstantial evidence might not be half bad for remotest antiquity
in the end a range of candidates depending on the acceptability of their credentials may be what emerges
Ancient Egypt
If I recall correctly (and sometimes I don't), there are quite a number of these in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. I only had a couple of hours in the museum, and a guy could spend DAYS in there! Way too much to see, WAY too little time to digest it all...
Loyal
certainly impressed by these ancient mesopotamian & egyptian examples
yet still puzzling how to connect them with surviving boundaries
i can at least imagine 7th century china or japan or england in continuous political succession down to the present
as for remote mountain passes within broad frontiers of separation
these strike me as being both too indefinite & not manufactured enough
tho i grant the subject title could embrace them too
What a fine post, with some very interesting links
enjoyed it very much!
chr.