Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 328424, member: 6939 wrote: In North-Central Florida for survey crews working mainly in the private sector, Party Chief $16-20 per hour, Instrument Man $12-15 per hour, Rod Man (if you can find that position any more) $9-11 per hour. Benifits are sketchy if any.
I'm in Southwest FL and would agree with these numbers as well. As was stated, rodman, are few, if any anymore. I now have basically 2 party chiefs on my 2 man crew, 1 of which cares nothing about being a PC anymore and is simply the eye man, the chief chooses to double as the rodman.
hlbennettpls, post: 328483, member: 10049 wrote: the chief chooses to double as the rodman.
I always felt that the chief should run the rod in a two man crew.
When I started out the old guy who was my chief wanted to run the gun because he didn't feel like walking around, hacking brush, and dodging cars and the like. This was a hard way to learn. I was basically yelled at the entire time for doing everything "wrong", but he never wanted to show me what he needed or where he needed shots - just that where I took them was wrong.
Fortunately I only spent about half the time with him and half the time with a younger PC running a robot. I basically pounded stakes and setup tribrachs for the second guy, but he took the time to show me everything he was doing on the collector and how/why everything worked.
When I switched jobs and they gave me a guy who was totally green I showed him how to setup the gun, handed him a radio and data collector and took the rod. I just would tell him what to enter into the collector and have him read me what was on the screen if there was an issue. Lo and behold he learned how to run the gun with minimal instruction after a few days! Of course scenarios would arise where I would walk over and show him what I was talking about or how to turn angle sets or something, but generally this was a much better way to teach someone to be an effective member on a crew.
I also burned up a lot of extra radio battery blabbing between shots about why I was doing this or that or why such and such was important on this particular job and how this one time we did this or forgot to do that and everything was screwed up....The guy is still surveying and I'd like to think I instilled a love of the profession in him.
Dan Patterson, post: 328485, member: 1179 wrote: I always felt that the chief should run the rod in a two man crew.
When I started out the old guy who was my chief wanted to run the gun because he didn't feel like walking around, hacking brush, and dodging cars and the like. This was a hard way to learn. I was basically yelled at the entire time for doing everything "wrong", but he never wanted to show me what he needed or where he needed shots - just that where I took them was wrong.
Fortunately I only spent about half the time with him and half the time with a younger PC running a robot. I basically pounded stakes and setup tribrachs for the second guy, but he took the time to show me everything he was doing on the collector and how/why everything worked.
When I switched jobs and they gave me a guy who was totally green I showed him how to setup the gun, handed him a radio and data collector and took the rod. I just would tell him what to enter into the collector and have him read me what was on the screen if there was an issue. Lo and behold he learned how to run the gun with minimal instruction after a few days! Of course scenarios would arise where I would walk over and show him what I was talking about or how to turn angle sets or something, but generally this was a much better way to teach someone to be an effective member on a crew.
I also burned up a lot of extra radio battery blabbing between shots about why I was doing this or that or why such and such was important on this particular job and how this one time we did this or forgot to do that and everything was screwed up....The guy is still surveying and I'd like to think I instilled a love of the profession in him.
I would rather run the rod any day. You actually have to think about what you're doing and your feet don't get sore standing in the same spot all day. I was lucky enough to work with one old timer PC who was happy to switch off running the gun every other day. He would come collect me up at my house every morning when I was around 19 to take me to the job sites. On a few occasions he had to roust me out of bed when I had overslept, but never an unkind word. He was just a nice guy through and through. Too bad I just heard he died last year and no one told me about the funeral.
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The Curt Brown article could have been written yesterday, rather than 54 years ago. And yet, we still see articles in opposition to his points, in the face of the very same issues he was addressing. How many decades of evidence does it take to prove a point? Nothing against those "individuals" who have benefitted from family education to become educated in their own right, and Brown recognizes that in the article. But that doesn't address the problems with surveying as a profession or business (whichever way you think of it). If technicians can't make a better than average living within your profession/business without having to become owner of their own business or a principle professional, then your profession/business is in deep trouble (unless you can mass market it like Walmart, in which case you don't have professionals and technicians). Simply not a sustainable model, especially with the increase in capabilities related to technological advancements.
The apprentice model article interestingly brings up Washington, Jefferson, etc.. Hmm, all graduates of Harvard, Princeton, College of William and Mary; the most highly formally educated people of their times. Surveying was a way to make a small fortune, and these folks were respected for their knowledge.
Recently I discovered an invoice for surveying services staking and describing less than one acre on a nearby lake in 1908. Total= $400 plus expenses of about $6.00. To retrace the parcel today, or do the same service cutting it out from a larger tract? Lucky to get the job for anything over $600. Cost of living change? Numbers only available since 1913, but using that year for inflation only the job would be about $9600; and would take the same amount of time or longer even with advanced technology. Increase in the value of the land? $500 then, $500,000 now.
Surveyors have not been taught the value of their service either in family educated or college educated arena. In Law or Engineering this education is required by college courses or the family. In surveying it is intentionally hidden because those in charge of the indenture system know they are only biding time until they have to compete on price rather than knowledge with underpaid technicians that will eventually leave to try and finally make a living on their own.
It's broken. Brown wrote down what to do about it. I expect surveyors will keep ignoring it; or maybe it's too late.
Duane Frymire, post: 328514, member: 110 wrote: The apprentice model article interestingly brings up Washington, Jefferson, etc.. Hmm, all graduates of Harvard, Princeton, College of William and Mary; the most highly formally educated people of their times. Surveying was a way to make a small fortune, and these folks were respected for their knowledge.
Didn't Washington survey from age 17 to 22 or so, then get a real job as a land developer?
"As an obligation to the public the surveyor should not, in any way, assist a client in acquiring rights to land that are not his to enjoy." -Curt Brown
Surveyors often do this with the blessing of the State Board or apparently even the threat of enforcement action if they are unwilling to violate the Bona Fide Rights of the adjoiners.
James Fleming, post: 328551, member: 136 wrote: Didn't Washington survey from age 17 to 22 or so, then get a real job as a land developer?
Sort of. Surveying paid both in cash and land depending on what the client had. Either way compensation for surveying was good and could lead to developing on your own. Which is one aspect of Brown's point, that surveyors need to be able to manage all parts of subdivision. A surveyor today might have to hire out all that real job land developer stuff to others. Those that say education is not needed and they work with the "best" who are self taught neglect the fact that they are working a very narrow part of what surveying was and could be. Not sure how old Washington was when he became the first certified Surveyor in the country from graduating the program at William and Mary College.
Kevin Samuel, post: 327771, member: 96 wrote: As long as we all understand basic economics, it should pan out.
But so few of us do! So many have no comprehension of what their low-balling tactics are doing to the profession as a whole. Even fewer care...
I wish I could be as optomistic for the future as Mr. Cash is, but I just can't.
See link. Interesting to note that consideration for what the client is willing to pay isnt on the attorney's list, just a footnote after all the other factors are considered. Most surveyors I know put that one in bold at the top of the list (sometimes the only item on their list). If you start low, you can NEVER go higher. Better to go high and negotiate lower. But most surveyors wont.
http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2015/03/how-do-attorneys-set-their-fees.html
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powman, post: 328363, member: 8761 wrote: Very experienced technicians that become the lowest paid person on every construction site they go to. I kind of feel bad when we call up the survey company on day 1 to place the building, we never see them again, but on that day the laborers are not the lowest paid workers on site.
These career technicians often are making a very good salary, and making it year round, whereas construction laborers often work in spurts. But, yes, there is good money to be made in construction.
Dan Patterson, post: 328364, member: 1179 wrote: Maybe that is the answer. In your opinion does that system work better? Perhaps if that's how it is the technicians make a decent salary.....
It works in the sense that fewer people who really shouldn't have licenses have them.
The real problem here is the old statement "The first guy through the wall gets the bloodiest". Who's going to make the 1st move to raise prices? I know if I do that, I shut down due to lack of work. I'm fighting so-called "colleagues" on this, as there are several surveyors around here that jump at the chance to steal work away from you by knowing your prices and doing it for $25-$50 less! Oh, and the theory that b/c you do good work you'll get clients that way is borderline hogwash! The general public has 0 clue about what we do and whether we do a good job or not, until there is foul-up. I work with a guy, who went through great expense trying to push a former company into a different market area where an ingrained local surveyor had been surveying for 30 years. The local guy did shoddy work, and put out very poor looking plats/maps. My friend, put on a presentation for the bankers, lawyers, title companies etc. Had copies of surveys he'd done as well as others (with their names blanked out) side-by-side and described to these people what it took to do a good survey, and what a good survey looked like. Hell, he even FED them at the event! A pretty big cost was paid for the event. You know how many jobs he got from doing that? Zero. Yep, the public cares little about what we do, and until THEY are educated, our rates/wages etc. will stay the same. Surveying needs to be taught in the public school system. I've gone several times to our local junior high and high schools to talk about surveying and mapping, and most kids have no idea what you do other than stand in the road and stop traffic. If it weren't for the fact that I'm in a family business and the fact I believed the BS they taught us in college about wages/rates etc. I wouldn't be surveying, I guarantee you that. I've often said, surveying is a great hobby, but a lousy profession. Anyhow, that's my rant for today...maybe... 😉
hlbennettpls, post: 328483, member: 10049 wrote: I'm in Southwest FL and would agree with these numbers as well. As was stated, rodman, are few, if any anymore. I now have basically 2 party chiefs on my 2 man crew, 1 of which cares nothing about being a PC anymore and is simply the eye man, the chief chooses to double as the rodman.
Ditto here in the Central East coast of Florida.....
hlbennettpls, post: 328672, member: 10049 wrote: My friend, put on a presentation for the bankers, lawyers, title companies etc. Had copies of surveys he'd done as well as others (with their names blanked out) side-by-side and described to these people what it took to do a good survey, and what a good survey looked like. Hell, he even FED them at the event! A pretty big cost was paid for the event. You know how many jobs he got from doing that? Zero. Yep, the public cares little about what we do, and until THEY are educated, our rates/wages etc. will stay the same.
The only people who care are the ones who receive value from our services. Rarely are the people listed above the final client. Most of my Clients are engineers and or municipalities. They see value in quality surveys. They have had bad experiences with bad surveys. To the group above, we are simply a pass through. We need to deal directly with the person paying the bill and not the middle man.
hlbennettpls, post: 328672, member: 10049 wrote: The real problem here is the old statement "The first guy through the wall gets the bloodiest". Who's going to make the 1st move to raise prices?
Brother Bennett, I have made the first move (for myself anyways). I'm pretty sure I am no longer among the cheapest surveyors in town (not that I was very popular among the bankers and title companies anyways). Also, I have started saying no to payment at closing on real estate deals because I believe it creates an unprofessional conflict of interest (that and I don't like working for free when the deal doesn't close). That being said, I am solo, so I don't have a crew to feed and my wife works as well, so I am not under the gun to be sole source of income for the family. I think our only hope is that a combination of an improving economy and declining numbers of surveyors will eventually force rates higher for everyone in the industry. Also, I am hoping that us college graduates are less likely to accept the poor business practices (like accepting payment at closing, letting developers/engineers string you out months for payment, not requesting retainers, etc.) that exist today. I just hope this all happens before I retire.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 328731, member: 6939 wrote: Brother Bennett, I have made the first move (for myself anyways). I'm pretty sure I am no longer among the cheapest surveyors in town (not that I was very popular among the bankers and title companies anyways). Also, I have started saying no to payment at closing on real estate deals because I believe it creates an unprofessional conflict of interest (that and I don't like working for free when the deal doesn't close). That being said, I am solo, so I don't have a crew to feed and my wife works as well, so I am not under the gun to be sole source of income for the family. I think our only hope is that a combination of an improving economy and declining numbers of surveyors will eventually force rates higher for everyone in the industry. Also, I am hoping that us college graduates are less likely to accept the poor business practices (like accepting payment at closing, letting developers/engineers string you out months for payment, not requesting retainers, etc.) that exist today. I just hope this all happens before I retire.
Yep, I agree buddy, I sure hope I live to see it. We too have stopped the payment at closing deal as well. If need be we'll charge a retainer fee if they insist on doing it that way. It's going to take those few of us that are hardheaded enough to make it happen. I too am thinking quite seriously about going solo. I'm already solo now, I just happen to also run another crew. I'm thinking of downsizing...lol.
hlbennettpls, post: 328234, member: 10049 wrote: This is the one thing I cannot figure out. If there's less of us, how on Earth have rates not risen?
I believe there are a lot of baby boomer engineering/land surveying business owners (especially those who sacrificed to keep staff employed) who took a pretty stiff kick to the shorts in 2008. My theory is that many of them are going for a large quantity of jobs at slightly lower rates to rebuild their retirement funds and market share. Not great long term for the profession at large, but an effective way to add staff and increase billing in the short run.
Kevin Samuel, post: 328910, member: 96 wrote: I believe there are a lot of baby boomer engineering/land surveying business owners (especially those who sacrificed to keep staff employed) who took a pretty stiff kick to the shorts in 2008. My theory is that many of them are going for a large quantity of jobs at slightly lower rates to rebuild their retirement funds and market share
One thing I notice around here is quite a number of older surveyors working well past the normal retirement age ( like age 70+). And I think a lot of them do it not because they want to, but because they have to because they had no retirement savings to speak of after all of those years of surveying. Just another reason to me of why surveyors need to clean up their act concerning bad business practices.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 328926, member: 6939 wrote: One thing I notice around here is quite a number of older surveyors working well past the normal retirement age ( like age 70+). And I think a lot of them do it not because they want to, but because they have to because they had no retirement savings to speak of after all of those years of surveying. Just another reason to me of why surveyors need to clean up their act concerning bad business practices.
It happens here too. That is the outcome of the low-bid, high turn over, high quantity survey business model.
And these are the public opinions we are up against...
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/312692/?start=20