When do you kick over an apple cart?

I can relate-

We investigate, report, and try to mitigate, but not disclosing isn't an option.

I've seen things like this before and it is so frustrating. Usually it is because a client has asked me to "figure out" his property and I run in to a situation where a single error in the past has been perpetuated for decades and results in lot lines (per the deed) running through garages.

I actually just had a similar situation where a 10 acre tract that was subdivided in 1914 had individual deeds carved out of it over the years. The deeds all are clear and easy to retrace. And establishing the boundary of the original tract was actually pretty straight forward. All of my measured distances matched record from the last 100 years within 2-tenths in 1/2 a mile. And the monument records were fantastic, so that part was easy.

The problem was that when the county graded the road that was along the north boundary of the 10 acre tract, for whatever reason, it was laid out about 15 feet south of where it probably should have been. So it was still within the 40' right-of-way, but the center of the improved roadway was not on the center of the platted R/W.

And that's where I think the problem started. The first deed on the north called for 200' north-south. And it was probably laid out by a cloth tape pulling from the center of the improved road. Each successive deed was pulled from the fences of its adjoining property to the north and so the fences started about 15 to 20 feet south of where the deeds would have them be.

So these people have been occupying parcels that lay about 20 feet south of where the deed describes them to be.

The problem was that one owner near the south end of the original tract was supposed to have a 200x200 lot per his deed. When I got it all calculated up and laid it out, his south line matched his occupation line perfectly. The north line (per deed) was about 18 feet north of the wire fence.

And now all of the land owners are wondering what I did wrong to make all of their fences off.

I've consulted with the county surveyor and also with two of the surveyors that had prepared maps in that area. We all are in agreement that my procedure was solid and my math was correct. And we've found monuments for the R/W along the north and it is clear that the paved road is not centered on the R/W. I've met with the owners out there and showed them the maps and the monuments and explained what I think caused the problem. I've even suggested that they work together to get the necessary adjustments to their deeds so that their occupation matches their recorded title.

But, as we all know, we really can only get the information and show it on our plats and exhibits. What the land owners do with it is up to them.

I'm currently working on a project similar to yours. In fact, it seems most of the projects I work on have similar problems - the boundaries on the ground do not match perfectly with the measurements as described in the deeds. Ambiguities perhaps?

So what controls?

The measurements as stated in the descriptions or the actual location of the boundaries as established on the ground by the landowners?

Stated another way - Is our job (as professional land surveyors) to find where the boundaries maybe should have been placed or where they were actually placed and accepted by the landowners?

Is kicking over an apple cart different than digging up ancient controversies that have settled long ago by repose?

Well, it was a small part of a bigger job in our office. Luckily not my stamp this time. Any who, us LS's put our collective heads together and for better or worse the stake is going to be set 3ft off the fence towards centerline of the road and the mag nail will go on centerline of todays highway.

He choose this because it better reflects the actual property lines along the centerline of todays highway and the adjoiners. Essentially choosing one line of evidence in its entirety over another.

If it were my stamp I would have hybridized the various evidence to make the occupation work.

He believed this was an option, but a certain set of highway plans and some other state actions indicate the state wasn't interested in delineating the line in this area. Thus, not defending claim. I could see his point.

Thanks,

Steve

Well, in California, as as surveyor I can't actually tell someone where their property line is. I can tell them where the evidence indicates it is. But if I have multiple sources of information that conflict, I can only tell them where the preponderance of evidence lies.

Of course, in most cases, all of my evidence leads to one position for the line (give or take a few hundredths). In the case of the specific survey I had mentioned, there clearly was a large difference (20 feet) between the deed and the occupation. And in that case, I simply informed the owner of all of the information that I had to indicate where the deed placed the lines and how the fences landed in relation to those deed lines. It is up to those owners to either accept the deed lines as laid out or dispute them, which would mean involving the court system.

In this specific case, there isn't any ambiguity in the way the deeds are written. And the mapped lines of the original 10 acre tract aren't ambiguous either. I've definitely run across deeds that aren't clear in their intention.

This particular situation is possibly an old error that was never uncovered until one land owner noticed that his deed call was largely different from his fences. I've been asked to survey alleged encroachments as small at 0.3' (one neighbor said the fence wasn't precisely "splitting" the lot line). And in most of those cases I tell the land owners that the cost of the survey isn't going to be worth the results they'll get (if they get any results).

You can't tell someone where their property line is located because there is no such entity. You won't find "property line" in the legal authorities. The correct term is boundary and it's what Land Surveyors do.

A big part of what I do is determine boundary location, it's what we do.

Well, semantics aside, I'm not going to tell a potential client that I can't locate their property line because there's no such thing. I'm going to understand that they mean the boundary of their property.

In any case, I absolutely establish the location of boundaries based upon the information in the deed and various associated documents and maps. However, there have been instances where a particular property owner is in dispute with an adjoining property owner about the location of their common boundary. And they call me to resolve this dispute.

In many instances, I'd say the majority of them, the boundary, as described in the deeds, is clear. And I can retrace the description and establish a position for this boundary. Then I can explain to the property owners how I established the line, where it falls, and where the improvements fall in relation to the established boundary line.

And in many cases, this is the end of it all. The two land owners go away content that they now have an understanding of their boundary. But it doesn't always work that way. There are times when the information contained in the deed is unclear or conflicting. There are situations where monumentation is destroyed, or it doesn't match record, or was never set in the first place. And there are those few situations where despite the fact that the boundary as described by the deed is clear, one (or both) of the property owners don't want to accept the location as established.

In those cases, I don't have the authority (nor the interest) to stamp my foot and say, "No! This is where it is!" They either accept my position, or they don't. I can't make them move fences or gardens or any other improvements. I can't force them to accept my determination. I can only give them the information that I have gathered and explain to them the process and principles that I've used to establish the boundary as I have.

So I can't force them to accept my established position. I can only say, "This is where I, in my expert opinion, believe the boundary to be." What they do with that information is up to them.