So…
I’m driving home after another rare day in the field when I espy a “competitor” of mine. This fellow is as busy as can be, he has a somewhat unique way of marking pins, and they are everywhere. He is retired from a previous career and I assume he augments his pension by "surveying". I slowed down and was going to say “hey” but got back on my way when I realized what he was doing. I turned around after a block to go back and watch this debacle.
He had a transit, and I mean a transit, circa 1938, and a cloth tape. He was measuring to some slender white-painted rods which he stuck in the ground at various points by sighting with the transit and then using a screwdriver to stick the tape under the transit for distances. I was stunned. I watched him for a while, making various odd measurements which seemed more and more like baseline/offset stuff from the back of curb and then from the side lines. By now I am videotaping with my cell phone. I then observed him setting a front lot corner with the transit-rod-screwdriver-tape method.
Now I’m just pissed.
Next day he’s back in my neighborhood. I drive on by, but when I get home I just start a slow boil. Eventually I drive back to where he’s working. I have to find out what in the hell he is supposed to be doing. I pull up and walk over. He’s in the process of measuring up a 20 degree front yard slope, over a chain link fence to get a “shot”. I say hey, he remembers me from some society meetings and such. I remember him from him having his license revoked a number of years ago. We start to chat and I just come out with it. “What in the WORLD are you doing”? He just grins and says “Why I’m surveying”. I am keeping my cool as he explains how we just “find corners” and asks “do you re-record a description every time you find an iron .25’ from where it’s supposed to be”? Completely ignoring the fact that he is the one CAUSING ERRORS BY HIS METHODS. He just runs a string of dissembling, deflecting BS. All the while with the most sh*t eating grin. I tell him that I think he knows exactly what he’s doing and he is harming the public and the profession. I leave, bidding him a nice day.
Next day I call up to the Board, explain what I witnessed and what I recorded. They weren’t too interested. “Maybe he was just doing recon work for crew to come along behind him” or “maybe he wasn’t surveying at all”. The Board investigator said that unless he had recorded plats that were jacked up, there wasn’t a whole lot they could do. We are not a recording state. I have been given some of his plats which do not meet State standards but, miraculously, match the record plat to the hundredth of a foot a and an arc second of bearing, and asked the investigator if having one of those would be enough to go through his files and discern if there are other plats that are in violation. He didn’t know if they could do that, and I’ve since been informed that a complaint about an individual plat would result in Board action based on that individual plat, but that’s it.
So what’s the point?
PS, For the sake of this writing I am assuming that this person was, in fact, NOT surveying, but making measurements for another purpose, and that any work that he purports to be an actual survey meets all applicable standards.
It seems that every state has several of these types. Even if you did get his licensed revoked again, he'd probably continue to "survey" without one. In a non-recording state how can he be traced? Even in the recording states these guys often don't file their surveys and it is just between them and the client. One thing I have always wondered is how these guys get so much work when others seem to struggle.
seems you have done all that you can do - unfortunate..
JB,
This obviously upset you. Not just with what you observed but what you purport to be the comments of the board. I know this has got to be frustrating for you since I have read your posts before and you appear to be a conscientious surveyor. I don't know what to say but try not to dwell on this too long. you can always call the board again and talk to another member.
If in fact his licensed had been revoked earlier...was it re-instated? I think, based on your post, you would be obligated to turn him in by what you witnessed and based on what you posted about his history (at least in Va you are so). These are some of the folks the surveying profession needs to weed out for good.
In my experience, when a formal complaint is filed it has to be recognized by the board. The board will take actions different after a complaint is filed compared to if a call is made and an observation is described. It's up to them to do the IFF and determine. Meanwhile you are pissed because you care about this profession. Obviously others will chime in...will wait and see what they think.
>I have always wondered is how these guys get so much work when others seem to struggle.
Price. His product looks like a 5th grade geography project and has about the same metadata behind it. I had an attorney once tell me he's embarrassed to present this work at closing. When I asked him why he did, he just said "he's the cheapest in town".
put it out of your mind and move on. it will drive you nuts if you let it. i've seen unlicensced people surveying and i've seen licensced people who don't have a clue how to survey working as well. the registration board can't be bothered or if you do manage to catch their interest the process to discipline is so lengthy that it almost doesn't matter. it is so frustrating but you have to let it go.
> put it out of your mind and move on. it will drive you nuts if you let it. i've seen unlicensced people surveying and i've seen licensced people who don't have a clue how to survey working as well. the registration board can't be bothered or if you do manage to catch their interest the process to discipline is so lengthy that it almost doesn't matter. it is so frustrating but you have to let it go.
That is the type of attitude that allows unlicensed and incompetent licensed people to keep practicing. It may be frustrating but it needs to be done.
SJ
You called the board and they must have looked to see if his license was current, so no problem there. Didn't like the tools and methods he was using but a transit is fine for lot surveys. Rag tape, haven't seen one of those for years but I do see quite a few vinyl clad steel tapes and some good fiberglass tapes that you can get some acceptable measurements from and they don't require a lot of tension like steel tapes do. I have often anchored a tape or steel chain using a screwdriver, bridge spike or hub when alone and then combined with a plumb bob could measure horizontally or along the slope and compute corrections. The only questionable thing I see is the rag tape and I question that. Those tools in the hands of someone who knows how to use them are fine for the work you describe. If you didn't get your equipment out and check his work, no wonder the board chose not to get excited. Has not been that long ago when those were the only tools available, "steel tape included", to survey with. Most of those tracks we follow, were made using such tools. Sorry, but you may be finding fault where there is none, you assumed inferior work, it could be, but you did not check.
jud
Edit: I thought I read there was a plat he made and it did not meet state rules and regs.
My bad
He had his licensed revoked, but apparently got it back somehow. If not it's clearly a violation. I agree with jud on the methodology.
I've always been under the impression that most boards will take a complaint from the client a bit more serious than a complaint from another surveyor. Perhaps a chat with the property owner is in order since you "may" be surveying adjoing property (wink wink), but keep it professional. At a minimum try and get a copy of the plat.
The bigger hurdle is to try and get your state to require recording of surveys. For the life of me I can't understand why any state would not require it.
well John, you've started the process correctly. You confronted the "surveyor" and you have touched base with the board of Registration.
I'm going to assume that the license was NOT reinstated since you haven't commented on that aspect yet. It was revoked, but current status is????
I think that you need to file a formal complaint with the Board.
One thing that many of us seem to not quite understand is that we are not the judge and jury. We make the complaint and it's the Boards job to determine if it's a valid complaint and take action.
Filing a complaint does not determine accountability but it does put it to the proper authorities to deal with...
In your case you have verbal statements to back up your complaint!
my 0.04', for what it's worth.
> You called the board and they must have looked to see if his license was current, so no problem there. Didn't like the tools and methods he was using but a transit is fine for lot surveys. Rag tape, haven't seen one of those for years but I do see quite a few vinyl clad steel tapes and some good fiberglass tapes that you can get some acceptable measurements from and they don't require a lot of tension like steel tapes do. I have often anchored a tape or steel chain using a screwdriver, bridge spike or hub when alone and then combined with a plumb bob could measure horizontally or along the slope and compute corrections. The only questionable thing I see is the rag tape and I question that. Those tools in the hands of someone who knows how to use them are fine for the work you describe. If you didn't get your equipment out and check his work, no wonder the board chose not to get excited. Has not been that long ago when those were the only tools available, "steel tape included", to survey with. Most of those tracks we follow, were made using such tools. Sorry, but you may be finding fault where there is none, you assumed inferior work, it could be, but you did not check.
> jud
Hear-hear!
Years ago we had a licensed old coot who one-man surveyed using exactly that technique, except he used a steel tape. Limited himself to in-town lot surveys and was very inexpensive. Only complaint I heard from clients was he was slow.
His hand drawn record maps were legible and when following his footsteps his work was competent. I've never forgotten seeing him bent over scratching the sidewalk when chaining. It's not the tools involved, it's the technique.
Never file a complaint. File a report of facts that might show possible or certain violation of law, statuatory or otherwise.
Let the Board then figure out if an investigation should be pursued. That's their job. If they do investigate, they have to come up with justification for sanctions from the State AG. Despite this considerable hurdle, some state boards are doing quite good in ferreting out some registrants who show under review a consistant failure to produce viable surveys.
I know a guy who had his license suspended for three years (and not the first time) but continued on his merry way using his former employer's tags, and his former employer would sign the drawings. The former employer's signature appeared on the drawings even when he was out of town for the summer. Our boy really screwed up when he got his license back but continued using the former employer's tags, and someone noticed that seemed strange.
Unethical screwups, both of them, both known for incompetence, and they don't give a hoot.
Post the video to youtube please.
