A homeowner calls saying they'd like a signed copy of a plot plan my pop did back in 1995.
We haven't done anything on this property since then.
He needs it in order to get a building permit for work done to the inside of the house (the city won't give him a permit w/o a plot plan).
Do I release it?
> A homeowner calls saying they'd like a signed copy of a plot plan my pop did back in 1995.
Was the plan signed back in 1995? If not, is your dad available to sign now? If he does sign now for work done back then, does that restart the statute of limitations time? If he didn't sign back then and is not available to sign now, will someone else be expected to sign. Was that person in responsible charge of the work back in 1995?
>
> We haven't done anything on this property since then.
>
> He needs it in order to get a building permit for work done to the inside of the house (the city won't give him a permit w/o a plot plan).
Have you confirmed with the city that they want this plan and that it is indeed inside work only? Not implying that your client would lie to you; but, sometimes they don't have enough of a background to get every detail exactly correct. If the work is really inside work only, maybe what the city really needs is something to show them which house they will need to go and inspect.
>
> Do I release it?
Me? Probably not. But that does not mean I would abandon the client and not help at all. Would probably do some investigating to see if we can solve their problem without an old map that might or might not reflect the current situation.
If you do release, you should get them to sign a waiver indicating that they know the map they are receiving is from 1995 and that you make no warranty express or implied as to the suitability of the work for the current need.
Larry P
> A homeowner calls saying they'd like a signed copy of a plot plan my pop did back in 1995.
>
> We haven't done anything on this property since then.
>
> He needs it in order to get a building permit for work done to the inside of the house (the city won't give him a permit w/o a plot plan).
>
> Do I release it?
Are you saying that the homeowner wants you to sign a plan that you did not draw, resolve boundaries, instruct the field crew or otherwise oversee the work on? If that's the case, then my first knee jerk reaction is an overwhelming no.
Is the plan unrecorded? I would think a Town would be satisfied with an "official" copy from the County.
If it is unrecorded, do you have a copy of the plan in your files that was signed by your father? A copy of this would be the only thing I might release to the client.
Many municipalities require a "current" survey, with current often being quite subjective. Also seems odd that they want a site plan for interior renovations. Do they mean a floor plan?
I'd be inclined to call the city and ask what they really do require. Then you can keep your potential client going in the right direction.
Regardless, there is no way I'd just re-sign and submit a 16 yr old survey to anybody without some kind of verification, and associated fees.
A fellow local surveyor was involved in a lawsuite because he provided a copy of an old survey to someone for use with a new sale of the same lot. It seems that there had been some changes to the property (new fences, sidewalks, driveways, etc.) that encroached into a neighbor's property, yet ther survey was used again because "There were no changes". Later, the adjoiner had their own survey performed that disclosed the problems.
It does not matter how many disclaimers you put on old surveys or whether or not you charge for new copies. You are putting yourself at risk by providing them without at least visiting the site to check for changes.
If it's not too much trouble, I wouldn't mind seeing a link to that case. (I will understand if you're uncomfortable releasing that type of information about a colleague on the internet.)
My reason for wanting that case is so I can recognize potential sources of liability, and so if I'm in the same situation, I can show a client just why I'm not willing to release old information as "unchanged."
I don't have a link and haven't read the case. The surveyor has reported it at our local ASPLS chapter meetings.
The attorney involved was one of the most respected real estate attorneys in Alabama. He passed away last year after over 50 years of pratice.
I would not do anything without actually surveying the lot. In Alabama, plot plans are not normally signed or sealed and state they are not surveys.
If I had a copy of the completed survey, signed by another surveyor, I'd make them a copy and stamp it "UNOFFICIAL COPY" and recommend that they get a copy from the court house. I'd also charge them for the copy. 7 out of 10 times they come back and ask for it to be updated which results in a new survey with my signature.
Just give them a copy of the unaltered original, put noting new on it and don't charge for it, its not your work, a copy charge might be construed by some in a manner that reaches liability.
jud
I only give out copies of plats that are recorded or if unrecorded a signed statement by the origional client saying it is ok.
> A homeowner calls saying they'd like a signed copy of a plot plan my pop did back in 1995.
>
> We haven't done anything on this property since then.
>
> He needs it in order to get a building permit for work done to the inside of the house (the city won't give him a permit w/o a plot plan).
>
> Do I release it?
Yes, make a copy and give it to them... as-is. No changes or notes. Mark it "file copy" in the margin if you like.
As always, a simple transmittal stating what you have provided from your files is appropriate.
Personally. my records include the transmittal and a copy of what was transmitted.
> Just give them a copy of the unaltered original, put noting new on it and don't charge for it, its not your work, a copy charge might be construed by some in a manner that reaches liability.
> jud
Did you not see my earlier post above? A surveyor was held liable for providing a copy of an old survey even without charging for it.
> Did you not see my earlier post above? A surveyor was held liable for providing a copy of an old survey even without charging for it.
The example does not make sense, unless there is more to the story (like a new date being placed on the survey).
A copy of a survey dated in 1995 cannot be used to hold a surveyor liable for improvements constructed after that date....it's as simple as that.
A survey map is a "snapshot in time".....it indicates conditions on the date of the survey. It makes no difference if the surveyor gave out a copy or if the client found one lying at the bottom of his sock drawer. It's a 1995 survey.
Otherwise, all those surveys on file in recording states would be liable for not getting updated.;-)
> The example does not make sense ....
Keep in mind we are talking about the courts and not all decisions are required to make sense to us.
> A copy of a survey dated in 1995 cannot be used to hold a surveyor liable for improvements constructed after that date....it's as simple as that.
A copy of a survey from 1959 can be used to hold a surveyor liable. At least, the attorney can argue that. Whether or not they might win is a different matter.
> A survey map is a "snapshot in time".....it indicates conditions on the date of the survey. It makes no difference if the surveyor gave out a copy or if the client found one lying at the bottom of his sock drawer. It's a 1995 survey.
Agreed to the "snapshot in time". However, judges are not interested in fairness. We as Licensed Professionals are held to a higher standard than non-licensed persons. I can easily imagine a situation where a judge holds us responsible for giving out old maps that we knew (or should have known) would result in harm to the public. A great example is where someone comes and asks for an old elevation certificate when you know the flood maps for that area have been changed. Are we free to turn a blind eye to the potential harm to the client and the public in a case like that? Be careful how you answer and remember that a judge might have a different opinion.
> Otherwise, all those surveys on file in recording states would be liable for not getting updated.
So far as I am aware there is no requirement that we keep our work "up to date". But there may well be an argument that us giving out information that we know is out of date can make us liable.
Something to consider.
Larry P
not signed
Does that mean anyone can do them?
Joe-
"No, but I'd be pleased to update it, as like an appraisal for value, it is not current and thus is misleading to use it for any reason" .
Look to: http://www.grahamsurveys.on.ca/a_using_an.htm for a viewpoint.
Cheers
Derek
Ask them if they think they could a life insurance policy based on 16 year old chest x-ray. It's an analogy that I use a lot, and to my thinking clients, tends to turn on the light. Things change.
I would be hard pressed to provide a copy of a map prepared over ten years ago. I think that easily passes the time frame where a new survey is in order. Like someone else said, I would find out what the municipality really requires and approach it from that angle.
A Boundary survey should be as good today as it was when it was done if enough evidence remains to retrace it. A site plan by nature, changes, but I don't call them surveys either and don't believe in combining them on the same drawing.
jud
I'm with Peter on this one. Give them an unaltered copy, mark "file copy" in the margin.
Consider the real risk vs. reward. You can be sued for almost any reason, and you could be safe and never sign, stamp, or release any drawing...
Time to hunker down in CT isn't it Joey? Snow for the weekend!
Consider this, if in Steve's example, the building department had a plot plan on file and allowed the home owner to use that for his plot plan (happens around here all the time) would the surveyor still be liable? Who cares where the copy comes from?
Dtp