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What the BLM Manual does NOT say:

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(@warren-ward-pls-co-ok)
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What the BLM Manual Says: "It was held in Cox v Hart that "a survey of public lands does not ascertain boundaries, it creates them".?ÿ

What the BLM study guide says: "It is often said the role of the modern surveyor is to "follow in the footsteps of the original surveyor". "It's not the surveyor's job to put a property corner where it should have been by the reported measurements, but rather find or reestablish it where it was. Our boundaries do not change based on a surveyor's measurement."

?ÿ

What the BLM Manual does NOT say:

"Decide that an earlier surveyor's work does not rise to a the quality you require to accept his monument".

"State on your plat that you are required by the State Board to reject found monuments and set pincushions".?ÿ

"Give careful consideration to monuments you find, but if they were not set with the same precision of measurement of your survey, set pincushions".?ÿ

"Note on your plat of record that the several decades old recorded subdivisions and deeds based on the aliquot monument you didn't hit with your GPS are all wrong because they were based on incorrect or sloppy measurements".?ÿ

"Note on your plat that the numerous monuments and lines of occupation (yards, fences, etc.) are "out of position", and therefore do not warrant your acceptance, and you are therefore required to set pincushions in their precise mathematical position".?ÿ

"Reject all old, found monuments that are out of position, set pincushions, and explain to the surveyors who's work you just discarded that they are inferior to your judgement".?ÿ

"A surveyor who sets a State-regulated monument in good faith, following existing laws and using tools available at the time, as near as may be, and recording a legal plat with certification taking all liability afforded by his State, followed by years of recognition and occupation by the public, has not set a property corner. He has done nothing. The property corner is not set until you come along years, or decades later and make a more precise measurement, and set YOUR superior monument. THEN you have a property corner."

(true stories)

?ÿ

 
Posted : January 27, 2018 8:56 pm
(@peter-ehlert)
Posts: 2951
 

What the manual Dose Say:

For the Survey of the Public Lands

when it is no longer Public Lands= different game

 
Posted : January 28, 2018 5:54 am
(@dave-karoly)
Posts: 12001
 

The various manuals are instructions to the original surveyor on how to run the lines and mark the corners. Once the corners are marked the instructions are reduced to a secondary role, that of assisting the search for the original marks.

Deed descriptions are subject to the same rule, they are instructions to the first surveyor on how to mark the new boundary. If the Deed says "the east 500 feet of..." then the Surveyor is instructed to measure west 500 feet from the east boundary of the parent tract. Once this is done and the property owners use and implement the marks then they become fixed in law. If it is allowable to question the Surveyor's determination of the east boundary then why not question the boundary that is built on so on and so forth until we get all the way back to the top of Mount Diablo? As a practical matter and for legal efficiency the Law has long recognized fixed monuments as being superior to measurement schemes.

Which leads us to acquiescence which Surveyors would like to ignore or say doesn't apply to them. Acquiescence is the essence of boundary law, that is what makes a reset monument become the best and most acceptable location over time.

Justice Cooley said the surveyor has entirely mistaken his purpose, he was not the first to say that. In an 18th century New Jersey case the Surveyors ignored the existing boundary and re-staked it in a new place. The Justices said the Surveyor's role is to locate the possessions of the proprietors, not to Try the Titles. They are saying rejecting old monuments in favor of new measurements is not boundary surveying, it is trying the titles of the owners which is not the role of Land Surveyors.

 
Posted : January 28, 2018 7:36 am
(@thebionicman)
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Dave,

While we are in general agreement, you drop some very important roles from the list. These are significant in States where the Manual is brought in by State Code.

When the PLSS corners are gone we turn to evidence to restore them. Sometimes the only evidence left is a relationship to other corners set by the GLO. At that point we use our Professional judgment to restore the corner. If we have any sense we take another look before we set anything, but thats another thread. The same is true when we come to corners created but not set by the GLO. If no other operation of law has fixed the corner we set it according to the Manual. Absent newer records it is also helpful to break out your Section for general search purposes.

The probkem comes in when it is used in place of actual Professional judgement or to beat up and reject previous work. Without clear evidence of departure from sound practice or violation of an estsblished line / corner you best honor old monuments.?ÿ

The problem noted in the OP has several sources. If my observations are correct, ignorance of boundary law and the role of the Surveyor battle for top spot. We continue to add academics and reduce experience requirements. Some States are even considering replacing thier State test with a national PLSS module.?ÿ

Aside from watching our policy folks I see a fee habits that would make a difference. When you find something that doesn't fit your idea, the first place to look is the MIRROR. All of us have been sincerely full of crap at least once. If you think you haven't, now is a great time to give this a try. Once you honestly evaluate your position, pick up the phone. Call the owner who built the fence. Call the Surveyor you dont agree with. If you dont, you are departing from sound practice by failing to obtain and evaluate the evidence. In the end it wont matter if your pin is 'better'.?ÿ

My .02, Tom

 
Posted : January 28, 2018 8:29 am
(@ridge)
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It wasn't done by a licensed surveyor so it doesn't count.

The 100 year old fence is not called for, you should ignore it, imagine it never existed, there is no such thing as operation of law.

 
Posted : January 28, 2018 2:34 pm
(@aliquot)
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Posted by: Peter Ehlert

What the manual Dose Say:

For the Survey of the Public Lands

when it is no longer Public Lands= different game

Not so different that you don't need the manual. The manual helps?ÿ you determine where the boundary was when the land on at least?ÿ one side of the line was unpatented. From there you can let state law do it's thing, but many PLSS states defer to the manual by statute or code, so even then it's not a whole different game.?ÿ

?ÿ

 
Posted : January 28, 2018 4:46 pm
(@brian-allen)
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The Manual also DOESN'T say:

"Please ignore all chapters after chapter 3".

 
Posted : January 28, 2018 5:02 pm
(@dave-karoly)
Posts: 12001
 

You can refer to the Manual by Statute but I don't really see what that changes other than maybe codifying the method to restore a truly lost Section Corner or how to subdivide a Section for the first time. The Manual contains plenty of guidance on accepting existent corners so that is codified too. Believe it or not, even in States that have not referred to the Manual by Statute it is considered an authority there too.

The original post in this thread was referring to existent corners, not lost corners. My post was not intended to represent an entire boundary text book.

 
Posted : January 28, 2018 5:32 pm
(@ridge)
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existent

?ÿ

obliterated

?ÿ

LOST

?ÿ

Believe it or not a LOST corner is the fastest one to get to.?ÿ So if you don't know what to do, running out of time, or already used up the budget (heard that one last week) make up a couple of end points, push a few keys on a computer, set it and proceed to resurvey the whole section.?ÿ Seen hundreds of them on filed surveys!

The existent corner may be there, obliterated data available, but it's still faster to set the lost corner.

 
Posted : January 28, 2018 7:33 pm