Hypothetical. This is NOT about amounts. It is about what set of monuments would control the 'correct' placement of a street.
1. A 1984 Parcel Map finds 2" Iron Pipes along the south line of a street. These pipes are all non referenced monuments. There is no history for them as to how they came to be. The measured values of these 2" pipes are the same as record. The 1984 PM accepts them in place and records.
2. A 2010 survey finds the original 1923 tract monuments. You were hired to define points for a property that lies between the 1923 tract boundary and the north side of the street, the street line being part of the lot. The found tract monuments also measure the same as record.
3. The distances between the tract line and the south side of the street is longer in all cases using the two sets of monuments.
Which set controls the street?
Not about amounts. All hypothetical.
How well does the traveled way of the road fit within the limits?
> How well does the traveled way of the road fit within the limits?
Fits fine. There are no negatives other than two sets of monuments and a street whos width will not get wider or shorter and will not work with both sets.
When you say two sets of monuments, do you mean on the right of way, or are you referring to the 1923 set vs the 1984 set as shown on that drawing you posted?
How much, if any, is there a shortage to the south of the road?
By the way, I would say the 1984 set controls the right-of-way if that is all you could find. It is more harmonious and has been on record as being monumented. If no other evidence from the 1923 info can be found on the right-of-way, then what other solution is there unless you wish to create another set of right-of-way lines?
> Not about amounts. All hypothetical.
There is not nearly enough evidence given to make any boundary determination. Pipes don't control streets, exterior monuments don't control streets, mistakes don't control streets, paper doesn't control streets, and the record doesn't control streets. They are all, however, evidence that must be gathered and evaluated before any determination can be reached.
What about the physical location of the street improvements? Aren't they the result of reliance upon the pipes to determine the street location? What evidence has been gathered regarding knowledge of, the purpose of, or reliance upon the monuments? These monuments didn't just appear out of thin air. They were place by someone for a purpose and likely relied upon someone for their intended purpose.
Surveyors and monuments don't make boundaries; landowners do. There is not one shred of evidence presented about any actions of any landowners. You can't determine intent until you have evidence of it. The evidence isn't found in the numbers.
The only thing I can say is, yes, you're right. (paraphrasing) "It's not about amounts; they're hypothetical."
JBS
I had a survey recently that I talked to you about, Paul. In that case, I found a consistent set of monuments along the right of way (both sides) and since they were of the same character and encompassed the front lines of several lots throughout the subdivision AND I knew the original subdivision surveyor had a habit of setting R/W monuments and not showing them on the map, so I used them to define the street and front lot corners.
Is there any reason to believe that the original surveyor set these 2" pipes and just didn't mention them on the map and just had a bust between the street and the exterior boundary. It happens a lot around here.
"Surveyors and monuments don't make boundaries; landowners do."
"You can't determine intent until you have evidence of it."
I think I'll remember these little gems
Then on the other hand WWKD? (WHAT WOULD KEITH DO?)
What no CEFB's on this one?
I suppose you considered all the usual things. Any actions that changed the street alignment, amended maps, certificates of correction, old improvement plans. Does the block you are in close, when you form the block with the exterior boundary and the sideline of the right of way?
Distance does matter, if the difference concerns some amount of usable land. The street align presents another wrinkle in that there is dedication and acceptance in one location and actual public and private enjoyment of the easement rights in a different location. Title issues there?
Are the mons at the street marked with a license number? Can you track down the notes of that survey?
Is it possible that they were set to replace original redwwod? What other evidence did that surveyor have which may or may not exist any longer?
I agree with Mr. Stahl. Not enough evidence or info to form a proper opinion.
Ordinarily, the original suvey
> Which set controls the street?
Possibly neither. [Texas] If the street was originally laid out by a survey that is represented upon the 1923 subdivision plat, the original location of that street would ordinarily be determined from the best evidence of where the footsteps of the 1923 surveyor place it. So the question boils down to what that best evidence of the footsteps is. [/Texas]
> Is there any reason to believe that the original surveyor set these 2" pipes and just didn't mention them on the map ......
No. Different tag number on the pipes Steve.
> By the way, I would say the 1984 set controls the right-of-way if that is all you could find. It is more harmonious and has been on record as being monumented. If no other evidence from the 1923 info can be found on the right-of-way, then what other solution is there unless you wish to create another set of right-of-way lines?
I agree. The south side monuments have a lot of weight so the monuments meant to mark the north r/w will end up being closing corners to the r/w line.
>There is not one shred of evidence presented about any actions of any landowners
No need for all that. It was a simple question, no need to make it complicated.
> No need for all that. It was a simple question, no need to make it complicated.
Ya, right, Paul. No need to complicate issues with evidence. It's much easier to just guess.
JBS
What controls the street? JBS
Read up on the words "Hypothetical Situation" and get back to me.
What controls the street? JBS
> Read up on the words "Hypothetical Situation" and get back to me.
Well then -
Hypothetically - The distances will NEVER MATCH
- Even it's only off by a McMillimeter :-X
> > Not about amounts. All hypothetical.
>
> There is not nearly enough evidence given to make any boundary determination. Pipes don't control streets, exterior monuments don't control streets, mistakes don't control streets, paper doesn't control streets, and the record doesn't control streets. They are all, however, evidence that must be gathered and evaluated before any determination can be reached.
>
> What about the physical location of the street improvements? Aren't they the result of reliance upon the pipes to determine the street location? What evidence has been gathered regarding knowledge of, the purpose of, or reliance upon the monuments? These monuments didn't just appear out of thin air. They were place by someone for a purpose and likely relied upon someone for their intended purpose.
>
> Surveyors and monuments don't make boundaries; landowners do. There is not one shred of evidence presented about any actions of any landowners. You can't determine intent until you have evidence of it. The evidence isn't found in the numbers.
>
> The only thing I can say is, yes, you're right. (paraphrasing) "It's not about amounts; they're hypothetical."
>
> JBS
Ummm...don't you think that monuments and a physical street are evidence of actions by property owners? Don't you think someone paying a surveyor to monument a recorded line on the ground is an action by a land owner, and don't you think the monuments themselves are evidence that this was done, as I highly doubt a surveyor set them just for something to do. Also a street placed within the limits of the street width is an action, I am sure, by some sort of land owners. These things don't just appear without an actual action.
Sorry, but I believe plats, deeds, monuments, and roads are actual and real evidences of action by more than just the hired hands that put them there.
Just some thoughts, Tom
Ordinarily, the original suvey
Hold all the mons, file a record of survey and move onto the next job.
Who controls the street....????
HMmmmm.... Best evidence today would suggest that it is a drug cartel gang.......
RADU
OOps......wrong control....
