Tom Adams, post: 440840, member: 7285 wrote: The Rio Grande starts in Colorado (meaning "red" in Spanish) and goes through New Mexico before becoming the Mexico border. Yes, a lot of Spanish names in this area (and in a lot of Colorado)
Actually, that's a common misconception. The Rio Grande aka Rio Bravo del Norte does begin in what was once part of the Republic of Texas and is now temporarily known as "Colorado" but that river actually disappears into Elephant Butte Reservoir in New Mexico before it reaches Texas. Most of the flow in the lower Rio Grande comes from Mexico and tributaries in Texas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_Butte_Reservoir
Well, duh................................most of the flow in the lower part of any river comes from lower tributaries.
For those that feel the need one can stop by the Jacob-Hands WWTP in Las Cruces NM and relieve themselves at the public restroom in the lobby. You can then run through the citrus grove about 400 yards to the west and watch your addition to the 3.3 mg per annum of effluent that actually makes up most of the Rio Bravo Del Norte as it spills into the river headed for Texas.
A most satisfying box to check off your bucket list if you're a surveyor from any PLSS state. 😉
The plant is on the NW corner of I-10 and NM Route 292 I believe.
Conrad, post: 440385, member: 6642 wrote: Hello Gents.
Just for those of us that are uninitiated, could you give an easy to understand explanation of the essential differences between surveying for boundary definition in a PLSS and non-PLSS state?
I hope that is a proper question. It might make some of these threads a little easier to follow. If its more than just PLSS and non-PLSS then it would also help to know that too.
Cheers.
(anyone else think the symbol for the preview button looks like a carburetor choke?!?)
Judging by this thread, some may want to read a book that was required reading in our surveyor training program. "Measuring America" by Andro Linklator.
Really a good read, even for those who already know it all.
Kent McMillan, post: 440926, member: 3 wrote: What happened in most of PLSSia is that as many section corners as possible ended up in the middle of public roads where they were promptly considered to be unfindable except in Nebraska where Jerry Penry surveys.
One of the worst things they did.....building roads right down section lines. Now you have to put your life in danger to recover a controlling monument. We/they should offset all of the section lines to outside the roadways.
Tom Adams, post: 440958, member: 7285 wrote: One of the worst things they did.....building roads right down section lines. Now you have to put your life in danger to recover a controlling monument. We/they should offset all of the section lines to outside the roadways.
There are numerous counties in Oklahoma that had proficient personnel acting as County Surveyor once upon a time that referenced a good amount of the original monumentation. One particular habit that has stood the test of time was setting substantial (2") pipes at the R/W corners in the four quadrants of an intersection. In the undeveloped areas most of these are retrievable.
Over the years a lot of these references have made their way to the more modern Certified Corner Records we're required to file with the Department of Libraries. At some counties one has to know the dusty shelf where the old county survey records are located in the back. Things you pick up over the years but forget to relate to others....;)
Scott Ellis, post: 440807, member: 7154 wrote: I spend a summer after High School working on a survey crew in Louisiana finding those section corners was easy. Find one jump in the truck reset the odometer and drive to the next look location, find that one and repeat.
Jim you can not even fill out an Elevation Certificate without asking a flood plain administrator for help, How often do you ask the County Surveyor for help? You are the last person I would want to retract survey work after.
I would have a serious disagreement over your comment.
Doesn't hold water here.
Robert Hill, post: 440982, member: 378 wrote: I would have a serious disagreement over your comment.
Doesn't hold water here.
I did not thinking looking for and finding corners in the PLSS squares were difficult. Maybe it was the area we were in, or maybe your area just has less corners set.
Duane Frymire, post: 440951, member: 110 wrote: Judging by this thread, some may want to read a book that was required reading in our surveyor training program. "Measuring America" by Andro Linklator.
Really a good read, even for those who already know it all.
Excellent book!
Scott Ellis, post: 440986, member: 7154 wrote: I did not thinking looking for and finding corners in the PLSS squares were difficult. Maybe it was the area we were in, or maybe your area just has less corners set.
Ok
If your memory serves you well, what were you recovering on your PLSS odyssey? What part of the state? I really don't want a debate just information.
Holy Cow, post: 440946, member: 50 wrote: Well, duh................................most of the flow in the lower part of any river comes from lower tributaries.
In the case of the Rio Grande, Elephant Butte Reservoir in New Mexico pretty much captures it all, reducing the river downstream to a trickle until Presidio where a major flow from Mexico turns it into a river again. The reservoir pretty much destroyed irrigated farming upstream from Presidio. leaving the river a muddy creek running though a salt cedar thicket.
Robert Hill, post: 440989, member: 378 wrote: Ok
If your memory serves you well, what were you recovering on your PLSS odyssey? What part of the state? I really don't want a debate just information.
It was 20 years ago, it was around Baton Rouge, Brushy, and some oil field that had White in the name
One of the huge problems in the plss is the surveyor who just drives a ?«-mile, finds an iron, says "I found it" and carries on. Trouble might be that there are multiple marks for that corner and/or the original mark might be in the ground somewhere but no one took time to look. If there are multiple marks, there are probably different properties whose corners were staked off one different marks. There are a lot of poor survey practices of people running out, "squaring up" the corners, and ruining the actual original locations.
Or if they don't find the pins double-proportioning in a new point "by the rule book" and absolutely being in conflict with established properties that may have been established from the original corner. Jackleg surveyors in the PLSS are the ones that think it's simple and don't do an efficient job because they read (or misread) "The Manual".
Tom Adams, post: 440994, member: 7285 wrote: One of the huge problems in the plss is the surveyor who just drives a ?«-mile, finds an iron, says "I found it" and carries on. Trouble might be that there are multiple marks for that corner and/or the original mark might be in the ground somewhere but no one took time to look. If there are multiple marks, there are probably different properties whose corners were staked off one different marks. There are a lot of poor survey practices of people running out, "squaring up" the corners, and ruining the actual original locations.
Or if they don't find the pins double-proportioning in a new point "by the rule book" and absolutely being in conflict with established properties that may have been established from the original corner. Jackleg surveyors in the PLSS are the ones that think it's simple and don't do an efficient job because they read (or misread) "The Manual".
I can not understand how a Surveyor in the PLSS system where everything is square, can find corners, then use those corners to set the missing corners, which has a book with step by step instructions on how to replace the corner, then the next Surveyor uses the same found corners and the book and set the corner in a different location. Also some of those corners are recorded in some public office.
I always just assumed that Colonial M&B would be a challenge given the time span and record research.
The monuments may have perpetuated more than other areas considering the tradition and respect for land bounds.
More substantial monuments than the rebar driven and flagged.
Robert Hill, post: 440982, member: 378 wrote: I would have a serious disagreement over your comment.
Doesn't hold water here.
he is obviously pulling your chain. He does the debate thing well, he had me hooked, as did Kent
haha, The thought that the PLSS system is all squares is about as funny as thinking that the lines are straight!
Scott Ellis, post: 440998, member: 7154 wrote: I can not understand how a Surveyor in the PLSS system where everything is square, can find corners, then use those corners to set the missing corners, which has a book with step by step instructions on how to replace the corner, then the next Surveyor uses the same found corners and the book and set the corner in a different location. Also some of those corners are recorded in some public office.
rephrase your question. Is this hypothetical include Public Lands (never patented) or is it all within Private Ownership, or a mix of Both?
And the State would be important (perhaps county also) as all have unique statutes and case law.
I suppose those things would also matter in Texas, but maybe not... I Have No Effing Clue Because I Have Zip For Experience In Texas 😉
===
PS: Foggy, some are actually straight!
Peter Ehlert, post: 441007, member: 60 wrote: rephrase your question. Is this hypothetical include Public Lands (never patented) or is it all within Private Ownership, or a mix of Both?
And the State would be important (perhaps county also) as all have unique statutes and case law.
I suppose those things would also matter in Texas, but maybe not... I Have No Effing Clue Because I Have Zip For Experience In Texas 😉
Its a real question, Any PLSS State, mix of private and public.
I keep hearing nothing is square in PLSS. Well why is it not square it should be. DId the PLSS Surveyor's get the grid wrong on the very first square and threw off all the other grids? Why come two or more Surveyors in the same surveying in the same section, can't match on where a corner should be set. The system is designed to use any corners found in that section to reset any corners in the original location.
Back to the regularly scheduled program...
The PLSS was developed to dispose of Federal land in an orderly manner. Many aspects of the system were a direct response to the deficiencies of metes and bounds practice.
I began learning section breakdowns while helping my Mom study for her real estate exam. It seemed pretty simple to me. Squares in squares in squares. Then I began studying mapping on a global scale. Then I started reading about grants, mineral surveys and various types of claims. Nearly 40 years later I'm still learning how these work together.
The answer to the question is, PLSS States generally have a well organized system superimposed on the pre-PLSS entities, with metes and bounds layered on top of that. In places where good policy and practice were in place early we have fewer Survey related problems. Where there is extensive obliteration, fraud or crappy practice Surveying kind of sucks.
Somewhere along the line this has been translated (by some) to mean PLSS Surveyors are inferior. I say bullspit. If those before us did good work on the ground and participated in public policy they are quite the opposite of inferior. I take my hat off to them and do my best to earn my spot in their camp.