Dave Karoly, post: 346624, member: 94 wrote: I have a privit problem
At least 3 of you guys have the same problem: you're misspelling privet.
A good post from the start. Many great thoughts and sentiments.
Now, here's my 3.5 cents (inflation and all that).
I found out about the Land Surveying Profession when I was in college. I had no clue it even existed before that. I fell in love with it immediately, switched my major, and I've never looked back.
In college, I used theodolites and threw a chain. Yes, you heard right, it wasn't on a reel. I might still be able to do it, assuming I could find a chain around here... I learned how to run level loops, keep field notes, station and offset, etc, etc. It was actually a good education.
When I got into the real world, the company I worked for had a nice Wild total station, but no data collector. We kept field notes in a field book. We wrapped angles 2X or more. We shot distances forward and backward on a traverse. We setup, occupied, and ran offset lines from actual monuments. It was definitely "old school" according to today's standards.
Today, we have robotic total stations with hand-held computers as the controller. There are no "data collectors" as the controller does all of that and more. Our setup is via GPS. We can "remote in" elevations from distant shots. We are wireless, reflectorless, and do it all in half the time with half the crew.
But I truly believe that the only reason that I can do what I do now and do it with confidence and integrity is because I went through the steps to understand what it was I am doing in the first place. I understand the fundamentals of the mathematics behind coordinate geometry. I know the reasons why we keep foresights and backsights balanced when doing level loops. I can explain how a least squares adjustment works (doing the math by hand is a nightmare, but I had to learn it at one point). I know the principles behind GPS measurement and how the receiver resolves two positions based upon the signals it receives from the satellites (yes, there are 2, but one is out in space and so it is ignored).
I only know these things because I had to learn them and apply them. I am so grateful for the "old timers" that had patience with me while I was learning to apply the things I learned in a classroom. They not only helped me understand the application of the principles of surveying, but they also taught me when it was okay to read a grade as a side shot and when I needed to turn through that point.
I'm just over 20 years into this career, licensed for just over 10, and I know that I still have a lot to learn. But I also know that what I've already learned is a LOT. And it is because I had good mentors along the way. And this is where I think that all of us professionals have a responsibility. We need to teach the importance of understanding WHY we do things the way we do to the new surveyors.
There will always be those individuals who will want to take the "easy way". And, they will get plenty of jobs and seem to do alright. But they'll never be able to tackle the REAL surveying jobs. Those jobs that don't have an easy answer. The ones where there is much more to the solution that a few centerline monuments in nice, easy to access monument wells. The ones where there is no original plat. The ones where the deed description includes a course that is "six hatchet throws southerly". The ones that many of us will argue for days about right here on these forums!
So surveying may be changing, but surveyors, real surveyors, are still the same.
At least, that's what I think.
OK, it's a private problem! 🙂
We are in the south. It's a place that supports various nomenclature! 🙂
Good observations Nate. But I don't necessarily think that it is the methods of measurement that determines whether or not we are surveyors. If we can adapt to new tools and methods to do our jobs more efficiently and more accurately, so much the better.
It's what data we collect, what we do with the data, what facts we consider when taking the origin of the evidence located, and how we arrive at and report our conclusions that determines whether or not we are surveyors or just high tech gizmo operators.
Running true line isn't always necessary, but getting to true line either to mark it, or at least to observe what is along it or near it is important - a fact lost by many when EDMs made it easier and faster to run random traverse than running true line where that line is in thick brush and the open hilltops or fields where the travers runs are up to several hundred feet apart.
That brings up a question though: If a surveyor gets from corner to corner by random traverse or GPS observation and bypasses making any observations along the lines between the corners, is he actually performing a boundary survey or just a survey of the boundary corners? How many consider that a significant enough distinction to consider such a survey less than a complete boundary survey?
maybe I should start a poll on that question.
That is precisely what we are generally expected to do for new tracts. The imperative is to have a description to go on a deed so that a transaction can happen quickly. Let the new owner worry about the minutia, such as: Are the improvements fully within said described area?
It's one of the requirements (though not really actively enforced) in QLD that you should be able to see from mark to mark. So if you stand on a corner, if you can't see the other corner you should clear the line until you can, or place a Line Peg on the boundary that you can see instead (and then repeat the exercise from the Line Peg to the following corner.)
The fact that some of the 'Old School' Surveyors still (jokingly or otherwise) refer to EDMs as a 'Magic Box' speaks a lot to our profession and, in some cases, an unwillingness to embrace new technology. If you were a client and your Surveyor told you his 'Magic Box' (and as this is a public forum, so you're telling them that now) did a lot of the work... how willing would you be to pay his fee? Rather than just pay some other guy that can run one of these magic boxes. With passing comments like that it would be hard for them to know just how complex the understanding behind those measurements. All the thorough and required research into old plans needed before you even start to take those measurements.
I'm equally as annoyed by the people that automatically assume everything the EDM is telling them as Fact as I am with the people that automatically assume that it's not. If you understand what it's doing, have enough redundant measurements so that you can prove your work is correct, I don't care if you use an Iron chain or a UAV. However if you don't understand the other persons technique, ask them. Don't just write them off as some guy that doesn't understand his 'Magic Box.'
I don't think that when surveyors here use a term like "magic box" that they are implying that they have no idea what it's doing or why it supplies the answers it does. Although non-surveyors might visit this site and read various comments, for me, and I assume many others, these are conversations among professionals and paraprofessionals with enough similarity in background to pick up on the context, and often the sarcasm.
I think terms like "magic box" are typically used in one of a few different contexts that typically don't intend to convey that they themselves are using the equipment without understanding, or that they are avoiding its use because they don't understand and don't want to.
The first common context is when speaking of those who simply punch a button and write down whatever answers come back and never question them. They are in effect, complaining about those who use the equipment with no understanding of the theory behind its operation or of its limitations. For those button-monkeys, it's a good thing that manufacturers have been able to increase the ease of use and reliability of the machines, because on a personal level, in putting blind faith in the box, this person is putting the same level of thought, faith, and reasoning into their actions as does a primitive tribesman who watches his witch doctor toss and read a few chicken bones.
The second is reference to the specific electronic processes, bits and bytes zapping this way and that to take what it is actually measuring (phase differences and time) and converting those measurements to distance or position. At the time when many of us began surveying, the surveyor was in direct control of each portion of determining a distance, from checking the calibration of a chain and adjustment of optical instruments, to making direct measurements with these analog devices, to applying the proper mathematical formulae (often long-hand, sans calculator) to make required corrections for atmospheric conditions, slope, etc. Most know, or once knew and still know where to look up the math processes that are done in the "magic box" at the punch of a button. But until the measurements are verified by redundant measurements and/or post processing or traverse calcs, the answers that the boxes produce must be accepted with a certain element of faith.
Sometimes, because of that element of faith, terms like "magic box" are used in a half joking manner. Whatever form of technology one is using, they must have at least a basic understanding of the working theories behind it, understand and utilize procedures designed to provide redundancy and verification of individual readings, know how to recognize bad output, and have an understanding of the conditions and issues that can cause bad output.
I agree that carelessly using such terms with clients and other non-surveyors can and often does lead them to a lack of confidence in the surveyor using the term and possibly the profession as a whole. A surveyor should not use such terms in those conversations unless he is also prepared to immediately follow it up with a more detailed and technically correct explanation of what the equipment does. You can sometimes speak casually and joke around, but never leave the client with the impression that what you do does not require extensive experience and advanced training. If you do, the client may also think that he should have just rented the equipment and done his own survey.