I am working on surveying a line dividing two counties in NYS, Steuben and Chemung. The county line is a historical line in established from a survey in the late 1700's; the "Pre-emption Line" (the NEW line). Its a pretty interesting story if anyone cares to give it a google. The line was run from a mile marker stone, which still exists today, at the NY/PA border to Lake Ontario. The line was originally marked, reputedly at mile intervals but as far as I know there only remains 2 original monuments. The line has not had any municipal type survey since. A surveyor for an adjoining parcel along the County Line established his survey line by holding the previously mentioned NY/PA monument, which is about 20 miles South and held a "pin found" at the northeast corner of the County. The surveyed line and pins set from the adjoining survey are anywhere from 12-30 feet off of the physical evidence along the line, being old stone hedgerow and fence line. There also is an old pipe I found further south along the county line that fit the fence line well. I do have some thoughts in regard to my own opinion but I would like to see if anyone has any thoughts or references to laws or cases regarding such.
We have several New York surveyors who check in here regularly. It may take a few days due to the holiday but you should get some NY opinions on this. You will get plenty of other opinions from other States that may or may not have any value to your specific situation. Thanks for joining in. I see your current number of posts is 7. Please start increasing that number. The more we put in, the more we all gain.
BIDDLECW: off point a bit, but curious...
is this a Property line (dividing private ownership) or just a Political boundary (for taxation)?
in California (yes, another world) I have been involved in cases where they are not the same, and the local agencies eventually decide who gets the tax money and who is responsible for infrastructure. In my cases it was Not highly important because both properties were extremely rural and of very low value (yep, there are lots of areas like that out here 🙂 )
Peter Ehlert, post: 346138, member: 60 wrote: BIDDLECW: off point a bit, but curious...
is this a Property line (dividing private ownership) or just a Political boundary (for taxation)?in California (yes, another world) I have been involved in cases where they are not the same, and the local agencies eventually decide who gets the tax money and who is responsible for infrastructure. In my cases it was Not highly important because both properties were extremely rural and of very low value (yep, there are lots of areas like that out here 🙂 )
In the particular area, there is a township subdivision so there are great lots that run along either side of the line between the two counties. I will try to get around to posting some pictures at some point today.
Mr. Biddle,
Please explain more. If the Pre-emption Line extended to Lake Ontario it is very likely the Ontario County, Seneca County line from Seneca Lake North is an extension of it. The Yates and Schuyler County East line was however set as the center line of Seneca Lake. Interesting also that Ontario County does not adjoin Lake Ontario. Perhaps you should look for monuments North of Seneca Lake.
There even may be a small jog at the Pre-emption Line in the border between Yates and Schuyler Counties. The Orange and Dix town lines appear to also follow the Pre-emption Line within Schuyler County.
Sounds like some interesting research is required.
Paul in PA
My understanding of a Pre-emption boundary is that it was in place before Statehood and that it is a possession boundary of a Homestead that may or may not be a straight line.
:gammon:
Do county boundaries always follow old property boundaries?
[USER=110]@Duane Frymire[/USER]
Duane is a NY surveyor-attorney and I think educator. Let's see if he can be rousted from his turkey induced coma to comment.
He has broad knowledge of case law.
No
Cass County I live in has an East boundary with Louisiana
North boundary the centerline of Sulphur River
The South boundary begins at a Lattitude line on the State Line boundary with Louisiana and goes West
West boundary begins at the extension of a Headright Boundary to the centerline of the Sulphur River and goes South
There is a TV series called How The States Got Their Shapes. County boundaries have much the same history of their creation.
Good to see another NY surveyor
This sounds like a great job you scored!
I really have never been to the western part of this state, but I do remember reading about this line.
The NYS archives has a map showing the Phelps and Gorham Purchase, which is of course is defined on the east by the Pre-emption line as re-surveyed by Ellicott in 1792. The map shows the old line as well, and the various miles and bearings along the line at which a stake was set. The resolution is amazing which is nice for zooming right in to an area of interest.
http://digitalcollections.archives.nysed.gov/index.php/Detail/Object/Show/object_id/36889&apos ;"> http://digitalcollections.archives.nysed.gov/index.php/Detail/Object/Show/object_id/36889#
So, fast forward 223 years....
As for what to use or not on the ground, I'd figure that the stone hedgerow you found may be some good evidence to rely on as it was probably intended to define the line as to where someone thought it was over 100 years ago.
You may find that what was once a straight line is now not so much. When Farmer Jones put up that stone fence, he most likely didn't hire someone to retrace Ellicotts survey, and neither did Farmer Smith or Farmer Frank. For practical reasons, I'd wager that most would find this acceptable.
But, Since you are working on a much larger scale and retracing a historical boundary survey commissioned by Massachusetts and New York, and consequently used as the county line, I'd say that you may end up with two solutions to show on your mapping:
1) The actual surveyed line as surveyed in 1792 (to the best of your ability) and
2) The line as it exists by practical location
I'd be trying to recreate the surveyed 1792 line to the best of my ability, and using evidence older than modern day reinforcing bars would most likely prevail.
Good luck and keep us updated!
And, the archives also has a picture, description, and location of one of the stones set on your county line. Looks like its the one set at 22 Ms from the PA border:
http://digitalcollections.archives.nysed.gov/index.php/Detail/Object/Show/object_id/2892
Eeeewwww...better you than me. I hope you're billing time+. Years ago, before one could very easily obtain coordinates of a monument 20 miles from the locus, I worked a bit against that line - As I recall, the words APPARENT TOWN/COUNTY LINE were fairly prominent on the drawings....
Best of luck & do please post the map, if you can!
For more than you really want to know about NY's http://www.joycetice.com/articles/preempti.htm&apos ;">Preemption Line.
I cannot attest to the veracity of the entire article, but it agrees with the little I know.
FWIW,
-SS
kjypls, post: 346193, member: 9749 wrote: Good to see another NY surveyor
This sounds like a great job you scored!
I really have never been to the western part of this state, but I do remember reading about this line.
The NYS archives has a map showing the Phelps and Gorham Purchase, which is of course is defined on the east by the Pre-emption line as re-surveyed by Ellicott in 1792. The map shows the old line as well, and the various miles and bearings along the line at which a stake was set. The resolution is amazing which is nice for zooming right in to an area of interest.
http://digitalcollections.archives.nysed.gov/index.php/Detail/Object/Show/object_id/36889&apos ;"> http://digitalcollections.archives.nysed.gov/index.php/Detail/Object/Show/object_id/36889#
So, fast forward 223 years....
As for what to use or not on the ground, I'd figure that the stone hedgerow you found may be some good evidence to rely on as it was probably intended to define the line as to where someone thought it was over 100 years ago.
You may find that what was once a straight line is now not so much. When Farmer Jones put up that stone fence, he most likely didn't hire someone to retrace Ellicotts survey, and neither did Farmer Smith or Farmer Frank. For practical reasons, I'd wager that most would find this acceptable.
But, Since you are working on a much larger scale and retracing a historical boundary survey commissioned by Massachusetts and New York, and consequently used as the county line, I'd say that you may end up with two solutions to show on your mapping:
1) The actual surveyed line as surveyed in 1792 (to the best of your ability) and
2) The line as it exists by practical locationI'd be trying to recreate the surveyed 1792 line to the best of my ability, and using evidence older than modern day reinforcing bars would most likely prevail.
Good luck and keep us updated!
This is a really nice find for the resolution quality! I have a couple different low res maps where the text is unreadable. Any thoughts on what the "varial" would means? Here is some pictures of the original line monument I located-
If anyone can let me know a better way to share pictures please let me know. I believe this would be the 8 mile marker as reference on the old survey. There was actually another original stone in existence in 1970's that was intentionally removed.
Back to the job at hand though: The line established by the other surveyor starting from the mile stone 82 NY/PA misses this mile stone 8 (he must have been unaware of) by about 30'.
Unless the surveyors in the 1700's ran a perfectly straight line a problem with extending a line off of the two stones to establish the original surveyed line, is that the first stone is 20 miles south and the second is 10 miles south of my job. If there was something to tie into north of my parcel that was reputable evidence of the original line that could probably work. I would love to go north on the line and grab some coordinates but I haven't been able to find any information of monuments in existence besides the to two previously mentioned.
Next to 'post reply' is the 'upload file' box. Click and select file to post pictures.
Why does it say Massachusetts?
Looks like
Mile 209
Var.
3.10' or 3.20'
Have you checked the NGS historical magnetic variation database to compare?
At the time that map was created land to the east of the line WAS Massachusetts. Read my links posted earlier.
BIDDLECW, post: 346265, member: 9943 wrote: This is a really nice find for the resolution quality! I have a couple different low res maps where the text is unreadable. Any thoughts on what the "varial" would means?
Great, glad it helped you!
I don't see varial clearly, but I do see variati clear as day at a couple of stones/stakes north of Seneca Lake. My best guess is that is related to the old latin word vario which when used as a verb means "to change". On this map when I see variati I see a slight change in direction of the line in a NW direction. I am not at my CAD to verify but I think this is what is going on.
Robert, If you havent already, you can check out this wikipedia page for a general history of why the stone says Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preemption_Line
After reading the Pre-emption Line articles below I find I was correct in reading the New York State map in respect to other visible locations of he line.
As an aside I note that the Line ends at Sodus Bay on Lake Ontario. My brother in law kept his boats at Sodus Bay. At first his cabin cruiser was kept on the West side of the Line, later on his sailboat was kept on the East side of the Line.
Paul in PA
kjypls, post: 346278, member: 9749 wrote: Great, glad it helped you!
I don't see varial clearly, but I do see variati clear as day at a couple of stones/stakes north of Seneca Lake. My best guess is that is related to the old latin word vario which when used as a verb means "to change". On this map when I see variati I see a slight change in direction of the line in a NW direction. I am not at my CAD to verify but I think this is what is going on.
Robert, If you havent already, you can check out this wikipedia page for a general history of why the stone says Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preemption_Line
On the map that you linked.. there is a notation of 'varial 3å¡20' W - 22 m "stak" "Ellicott"
also further wiki stuff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phelps_and_Gorham_Purchase
Uh, sorry to sound disrespectful, but any surveyor taking on a historical retracement who would read "varial" or variati" instead of first trying to make out "var" and numbers needs to do a lot more study because it shows an unfamiliarity with early surveying practices .
Variation was nominally what we call magnetic declination, and specifically what they set as an offset on their compasses to the magnetic needle.
Most times that was to obtain the best estimate of compass bearings based on astronomic north, but I think the GLO deputies and maybe others sometimes recorded "var" values which were set on the compass but include offsets for other purposes. Or maybe they were just re-estimating the declination based on the most recent discrepancy.