We are no longer working together

Nate,

Give those younguns some credit. They might be a lot sharper than any of us.

Dave

> And, I have heard that the median age of surveyors is now over 60 yrs.
When I worked in British Columbia there were very few licensed surveyors. It was typical for those few to have an office full of technicians, some of them with decades of experience under their belts. No LS got near the field but the quality of PCs and technicians was, in general, far higher than the average I now see. So, IMO, fewer licensed surveyors isn't as much as a problem as licensing a bunch of people just to fill out the ranks would be.

The problem is economics. Fewer licensees means lower supply to fill the demand which runs up price which tends to attract more people to the profession. Right now there is still a surplus of licensees, IMO.

<Trimble Data collector, only working with Trimble Equipment.

Actually Trimble has split their equipment and data collector software into Survey and Construction. And they don't talk to each other.

I agree with you 100%. Our dealer keeps trying to get me to upgrade. I consider it a downgrade.

James

> Actually Trimble has split their equipment and data collector software into Survey and Construction. And they don't talk to each other.

This is simple economics according to my local rep for my brand. They sell/service around 10:1 units to the construction and machine control folks. Surveying is simply an after thought in the design and marketing of GPS and data collectors.

Steve

I am sure gonna give those young uns credit. Shucks, if my i-phone needs a setting change, I call a young un, for help!!

A young surveyor, with a bit of foundations... that's what I want to see. Some older, and genuine experience going into the young uns 0.04'.

I think it can be a dynamic duo.

N

Most/Any Tablet can connect to Leica equipment. 12d Field is gaining ground for detail pick-up and construction stake out in Australia and is compatible with Trimble and Leica gear.

Not knowing how to drag a chain and have sufficient tension on it for accurate measurement isn't a great loss to the profession. All (at least as far as I know) are still being taught about it. About using the measurements made, what could have been the error sources, so that we may understand how it relates to our measurements.

I know that the Steel band needs 7kg and if it was used on a hot day it would over measure and sometimes that wasn't accounted for. I wouldn't have the first clue how to do that measurement though.

I have to convert from Chains and Links almost every day, certainly every week. It will be a long time before that information and use is lost to us.

I'm 31.

I think it's actually really rude to assume that the 'Young' Surveyors are the ones that must be the lazy surveyors that are pincushining corners. As when I look back through past plans it's been happening for a long, long, long time. (Also, that's not really a thing in QLD, Aus. Monument based boundaries, unless you have very strong evidence to the contrary)

I wonder if the generation of Surveyors that was before you made the same silly statements when you started to use Theodolites.

Rude?

Silly?

Okkkk

I think that some of the BEST surveyors are and will be the young uns, that were schooled, and mentored properly.

"Why is youth spent on young people" (said by an aging fellow, who finally figures it out, and wishes he were young and energetic, enough to do it) I am lamenting a bit, the loss of my youth. So, I am not criticizing the young. I'm wishing I were young!

I see some REALLY good ones coming on. And, I'm glad.

Nate

Outdated Equipment

I was not impressed when the college professor (PLS certificate program for those in the field already) taught steel tape with chaining pins while measuring temperature and tension followed by the computation of the corrected distance.

The college professor had to elect a fellow student to teach the GPS portion of the class.

I can tell you exactly when the last time was that I corrected a tape measurement. On the final exam for that class.

It is important to understand where the surveys came from, but that could be very easily taught without dusting off a now outdated piece of equipment.

Equivocator, the tape reductions are easy.

>these savy users, are YOUNG, and don't know our history, how to drag a chain, or a tape, or run a transit. And are out of touch with what a chain or a link is. So, they pincushion, stuff by 0.03'. Yup. Or 0.25'.

Yeah, both silly and rude.

Silly as it incorrectly implies that they/we aren't being taught, or appreciating the importance, about the history of Surveying. Rude as it seems to suggest that 'they' are likely to, or responsible for, the pincushion at corners.

Pre-facing your insult with savvy doesn't make it any less of an insult.

I'll echo this. I'm thrilled with the thinning of the ranks and the raising of barriers to entry. And on the other note, I usually see the pincushion stuff coming from the "old school" guys, not younger licensed surveyors...

Outdated Equipment

Sorry, I think I wasn't clear. I know how to do the calculations/corrections. It's the actual physical measurement with a Chain that I wouldn't know well enough to produce reliable measurements.
Given the equipment, instructions and a little bit of time and I could work it out. Though I feel the exercise wouldn't be of much/any benefit to modern practices.

> When I worked in British Columbia there were very few licensed surveyors. It was typical for those few to have an office full of technicians, some of them with decades of experience under their belts. No LS got near the field but the quality of PCs and technicians was, in general, far higher than the average I now see. So, IMO, fewer licensed surveyors isn't as much as a problem as licensing a bunch of people just to fill out the ranks would be.
>
> The problem is economics. Fewer licensees means lower supply to fill the demand which runs up price which tends to attract more people to the profession. Right now there is still a surplus of licensees, IMO.

This hits on two subjects that are close to home for me. I'm Canadian, and have spent my entire career working down here; I'm licensed in two states. I received a two-year diploma in Geomatics Engineering Technology, which was mainly focused on surveying at its core, but we covered many other topics, fairly in depth (GIS, Photogrammetry, Digital Mapping, Programming, Computer Systems, etc.). There are waiting lists to get into these two year programs; in fact, in the year I began I had 63 classmates, with a waiting list of 20 more people. Graduates are paid well, despite being green, because they have all the mental tools and technical skills needed in today's industry. Meanwhile, I see the opposite happening here in the US, more of a "stick him on the rod for a couple years, and we'll pay him crap."

Licensing is much different in Canada. You must pass 13 exams (or credit for some through education), each detailed in a specific area. After gaining the required amount of experience (varies by province), you then must go through an apprenticeship under a licensed surveyor; the catch is that the LS is obligated to teach and develop the apprentice, or face disciplinary action. Another catch is that licensing is not captured under a government entity, the associations are in charge of licensing, at least in most provinces.

All in all, it's just a different environment north of the border when it comes to surveying. I could voice an opinion, but I've learned that nothing good comes of that down here; my state associations and NSPS are busy fighting battles that are already lost and aren't interested in being introspective. A change is greatly needed.

> The equipment manufacturers are increasingly becoming exclusive.
>
> The key component is the DATA COLLECTOR. As time rolls along, we are seeing the main manufacturers of equipment diverge.
>
> Leica Data collector, only working with Leica Equipment.
>
> Trimble Data collector, only working with Trimble Equipment.

This is only applicable to Total Stations and GNSS Receivers. This was a result of the great divergence about 15 years ago. Trimble made GPS, Leica and Topcon made Total Stations, and TDS made the Data Collector. Becoming proprietary was economical... why give people the choice to buy from someone else and let it all work together. It would be like throwing a MOPAR in a Ford. This is not localized to surveying, it's in every part of your LIFE.

Carlson found the gap, but guess what, they aren't going to make money either if they keep supporting legacy products... it'ls like blindly re-certifying a survey you made 20 years ago for free.

> And it will be increasingly complex, increasingly necessary to understand geoids, and projections, and thetas, and it will need more and more savy users. I am afraid that these savy users, are YOUNG, and don't know our history, how to drag a chain, or a tape, or run a transit. And are out of touch with what a chain or a link is. So, they pincushion, stuff by 0.03'. Yup. Or 0.25'.

EDIT: noticed your other post... but I'll leave what I wrote for posterity's sake.

I went to a fancy school, and guess what? We learned to turn angles with T2s and tape distances with steel tapes... and then we got to use total stations.

As far as pin-cushioning, that's laughable. I was taught boundary law at my fancy school; I've accepted corners 30 feet off. I blame pincushioning on three things: ego, willingness to learn, and willingness to teach. I have always been willing to teach, especially about RTK, baud rates, etc.; but the time to do that is not in the low-ball budget. By the way, you me need to cut corners to make up for that deficiency so we can be cheaper and "better" than surveyor B. We wont call him to ask him why accepted sureyor C's corner, which was reestablished form the original bearing trees, we're far superior... and cheaper.

The workflow between the construction and survey software is a lot different; you should see what they make for agriculture. I believe the communication issue between the construction and survey is more due to the electronic design to account for engine noise and other interference that exists when the receiver is sitting on a dozer or grader; different environment requires different tools.

Nate may have been misunderstood, not sure.
But the general thrust of my understanding on this is a concern several colleagues here have, some young surveyors included.
I have seen some plain slack supervision of trained (graduates) here with horrendous results.
I'm referring to cadastral surveys.
Also had graduates complaining about being used as cheap labour as an instrument man doing set out and site surveys with no chance to enhance their professional skills (boundary) and move towards fully registered land surveyor.

When I started work I was given a one day crash course on 4 screw ancient vernier theodolite and Gunters chain.
It made me appreciate those 'ancient methods' and the methods only available back then.

It is a generally accepted concern here for the future of surveying (Cadastral).

I'd suggest cut Nate some slack and if the cap fits then wear it gracefully and move on, hopefully learn.
If it doesnt fit then the comments obviously arent meant for you so no need to take offense.

I've learnt that lesson, as an older version of the modern surveying profession. Probably (most likely) in my youthfulness it would have been red rag to a bull, but then no one ever explained that to me.

"... fewer licensed surveyoWe are no longer working together

"... fewer licensed surveyors isn't as much as a problem as licensing a bunch of people just to fill out the ranks..."

If only my Board realized this!! Oh wait - they have to keep the revenue stream up...

> ..... I received a two-year diploma in Geomatics Engineering Technology,...
BCIT by any chance?

Outdated Equipment

Agreed. It is important to know what the errors were.

The Land Court had a requirement to measure a 450 ft line in a traverse to verify the EDM was correct, so I have limited experience with a tape.

Dennis Drumm, PLS has a program. His basis is that the old surveys (1950s-1980s) had good angles and bad distances. Add the computed points and the traverse points, pick and choose pairs to hold and it will scale the plan to match the monuments selected. I have used it a few times with very good results.

I went to a better school: COGS.

*there is a small rivalry between the two schools*