Unskilled and Unaware of It

A similar (albeit different) thought from surv8r's signature line:

--
"One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important..."
-Bertrand Russell

The older I get the more prevalent this seems and I'm thinking it is becoming the norm.:-(

I see it more also.

I have a nagging feeling that there is an epidemic of "cranial rectumitis" among the younger generation.

I have to be careful though, I haven't been this old my whole life. When I was younger, everything looked fine to me, too.

"The fool doth think he is a wise man, while the wise man knows he may be a fool."

William Shakespeare (sic)

Ignorance is Bliss

Paden Cash..I have to agree with you on a lot of points on this one. I have worked for a few different surveyors. Some of the worst solutions to a boundary came from some of the most respected surveyors. (They have also come up with some of the most brilliant solutions) But when they determine that the previous surveyor who set the original corners was 'wrong' and reset it according to the plat using the blank statement of "intent" then I sometimes wonder where we are at and how we move forward. And in the end I am left scratching my head.

> I see it more also.
>
> I have a nagging feeling that there is an epidemic of "cranial rectumitis" among the younger generation.
>
> I have to be careful though, I haven't been this old my whole life. When I was younger, everything looked fine to me, too.
>
>
> "The fool doth think he is a wise man, while the wise man knows he may be a fool."
>
> William Shakespeare (sic)

I posted this on Linkedin a while back. My experience is totally different. I find that this is more prevalent with the "Been there done that Crowd", particularly when they get out of their little soapbox element (ie topos, Elevation certificates and elementary stuff they've been doing their whole career).
Their are guys out here who take the exam multiple times, finally the coin lands on heads on the multiple choice and they get it right. They go on to lead a career working for all the Local Chop Shop Engineering firms in the area, just sitting in some back office stamping everything that comes across their desk. They wont dare challenge anything, because deep down inside they know that anybody who really vetted them would not give them the time of day, much less hire them (they've come to embody Melville's character, Bartleby the Scrivner). When confronted these bozos will mask their incompetence with such statements as "I'm a supervisor, I don't have to worry about such things". I guess Chimpo is above the minutiae.

- He's stupid, but he knows that he is stupid. So, that almost makes him smart.
3rd Base (coined and sampled from Jimmy Nelson, a very popular ventriloquist in the 50's.)

Ralph

You made me think of a situation that happened probably about a year ago. I was asked to redo a survey to ALTA standards. A previous survey had been performed (and paid for) only a month previous by a local 'chop shop' engineering firm. There were some glaring and obvious discreprencies.

When I contacted the "Surveyor in Responsible Charge" (the one who signed the survey) her reply was amazingly aloof, "I really didn't have anything to do with that job, I just did some drafting on it."

I was literally speechless. And ask anybody that knows me, that doesn't happen often.:-S

Ralph

> You made me think of a situation that happened probably about a year ago. I was asked to redo a survey to ALTA standards. A previous survey had been performed (and paid for) only a month previous by a local 'chop shop' engineering firm. There were some glaring and obvious discreprencies.
>
> When I contacted the "Surveyor in Responsible Charge" (the one who signed the survey) her reply was amazingly aloof, "I really didn't have anything to do with that job, I just did some drafting on it."
>
> I was literally speechless. And ask anybody that knows me, that doesn't happen often.:-S

Thank You Paden, at least it's just not a local problem! 🙂
If you wrote a book about it, most would say it's fiction.
I noticed you mentioned growth in your own organization, you followed it with the realization that some additional management would be required. It gets really bad when some of these outfits grow to 30 or even 50 crews with no semblance of supervision. They create all kinds of billable bodies and "A" has no idea what "B" did or why. A lot of times these companies will expand into market segments which they have no idea about, but on the surface appear lucrative. I've seen where some of these outfits have take to hire ex-salesmen to lead the expansionary charge. When you talk to some of these individuals you realize that once a BSer always a BSer. When you have really been there and done it, you usually have all the scars to prove it and normally will realize how truly humbling this Profession can be.

Ralph

> When I 'trip' over another surveyor's work that seems inadequate or incongruous with existing and available evidence I've noticed the more obvious (or heinous) a mess they left; the more likely they probably are to be oblivious of their actions.
>
> I've also noticed that when contacted, these surveyors are also more prone to a defensive and adversarial posture.

What you refer to sounds more like a style of practice that I call Plausible Deniability. It's really more geared for speed than anything. The idea is that you can sort the solutions to any surveying problem into:

- Obviously wrong,
- Looks like it might be wrong,
- Looks like it might be correct, and
- Obviously correct

A solution of the "Looks like it might be correct" variety is one that has at least some basis in the evidence, so it has some justification, if a thin one. The "Looks correct (but isn't)" variety of solution is generally much less time-consuming to arrive at. When speed is the main consideration, "Looks correct" is about the best that can be done since "Obviously correct" will involve more research and field investigation.

I agree

Most of the poorly executed (and I use that word in more than one sense) surveys I have followed seem to have a common factor; the time spent completing it. I use the word "seem" because nobody ever admits to pricing a job too low. It is soooo obvious on some surveys.

While I always try to keep costs (time) at a manageable level, you simply can't perform a survey correctly without discovering and collecting the necessary evidence. The best decisions in the world are useless if made without the luxury of facts.

I agree

The best decisions in the world are useless if made without the luxury of facts.

That's just a keeper there!

Nate

I agree

> While I always try to keep costs (time) at a manageable level, you simply can't perform a survey correctly without discovering and collecting the necessary evidence. The best decisions in the world are useless if made without the luxury of facts.

Absolutely, and for the Plausible Deniability style of practice, the responsible surveyor is practically required to insist that what he or she did was correct in some way. To admit that it was just a slap-dash effort that could very well be wrong gives the game away.

I agree

> > While I always try to keep costs (time) at a manageable level, you simply can't perform a survey correctly without discovering and collecting the necessary evidence. The best decisions in the world are useless if made without the luxury of facts.
>
> Absolutely, and for the Plausible Deniability style of practice, the responsible surveyor is practically required to insist that what he or she did was correct in some way. To admit that it was just a slap-dash effort that could very well be wrong gives the game away.

:good:

Plausible Deniability

Quite a mouthful.

Wikipedia Definition

If the foo shi..uh, I mean if the shoe fits, wear it.

Plausible Deniability

> Quite a mouthful.
>
> Wikipedia Definition

Yeah, I'd forgotten that there's probably a Wikipedia entry for everything these days, but those sorts of shenanigans were what I had in mind. It's invariably the fault of a party chief, a draftsman, a technician, or a title company with the actual responsible surveyor merely an "innocent bystander".

"Oh, that job was done by a party chief who I later fired when I found out he was smoking crack," fits into the general category.

The Dunning Kruger effect, and other similar cognitive biases, such as confirmation bias, are fascinating subjects. There have been some amazing displays of their affects on people, often around the science/religion or science/pseudoscience debates.

I'd recommend that the best solution to avoid the traps is to:
1) Remember that your brain is awesome, but also is developed to take shortcuts, and to fool yourself into thinking you're making the right decisions.
2) Accept and relish in the fact that you can be wrong. Work on it so that if you make a mistake then you don't see it as a bad thing, but as an opportunity to improve.
3) If in doubt, and you should be in doubt about most things, validate against external factors.
4) Always have in the back of your mind, "I'm making a claim, now how can I prove that claim".
5) The scientific method works, so if in doubt, try and falsify your work, or design an experiment to show you're right.
6) Challenge all your beliefs regularly.
7) All the other ones I've forgotten. 😀

Sometimes you'll make mistakes, but if you accept them, and fix them, then you've improved.

Unfortunately if someone is already well affected by cognitive biases, then all of this advice is pretty well meaningless. 😀

Bugger. Beerleg lost my post.

Anyway, another form of bias that will probably affect every surveyor at some point is the investment bias, or commitment bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commitment_bias

See here for more information.

In short what happens is irrational decisions can be made based on previous investment in a project. If a project turns out to be unsound, then people will often want to push on with the project, because the alternative is that all the effort and resources invested in the project up to that point are wasted. Often the mind finds it easier to push on, with unsound decisions, than to admit to the failure of past actions.

Unskilled and Unaware of It (or other factors?)

I have read on other forums (certainly not here on our beloved Beer Leg) of people inflating their skill set (yes, lying) in an effort to get interviews. Since the economy has been in the dumpster for so long, some people have trying to "get inventive" Just for the sake of attempting to get an interview. That has included, but not limited to, taking things off resumes such as advanced college degrees and "inventing" jobs to fill in employment gaps.

So, I might contend that at least some of the folks Are aware of their skill set but are simply trying to get an interview which, for some time now, does not even lead to a job offer.

Our BOR terminated the license of a fellow who never found a monument he could accept. Everyone else was incompetent; not him. Or so he thought.

I suppose there are many of us who operate a single crew shop who may be repeating the same errors/poor judgement/sloppy technique/single way of seeing things. We've done it the same way so many times, it is not possible to suddenly accept otherwise.

That is very different than doing it incorrectly and simply not caring enough to do it correctly. I called a surveyor once and mentioned about 15 things he did on one survey that was inconsistent with his standard practice. He had a trunk full of excuses. The bottom line was that someone else did the work for him for less than what he had bid the job. It was years before I learned about the outside help being used.

Unskilled and Unaware of It (or other factors?)

Dishonesty will always have a presence. It's part of human nature. Generally though the people trying that sort of thing are aware they're being dishonest.
The problem with cognitive biases is that they usually present themselves in such a way that the afflicted person cannot even see the problem.
Take confirmation bias for example. It's not uncommon for people with this bias to be presented with information showing they are wrong, yet a short while later, they carry on as though the original point is still correct. Now, to an outside observer, this looks very dishonest. However (from what I've heard) the issue is not dishonesty but that the person suffering the bias cannot actually incorporate the new information into their thoughts. It's almost like the refutation was never heard in the first place.

For a very good explanation see this. It's written by a guy who did suffer from confirmation bias (and suffers again under a different topic).
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Morto n's_demon