Trimble Access duplicate point tolerance bug

did you try store another?

@john-hamilton?ÿ

No, I wanted it to show as a "check point" but it seems like it's treating it like I'm "storing another other than the point class shows up as "check" which I do want.

I don't quite understand the point of storing another. It just adds another useless coordinate to the point every time I backsight in 2 faces (options in that case are discard or store another). It's been working fine, up until lately. Not sure if it just started with the integrated, or the last update, or unrelated.?ÿ

I just want it to always show me the deltas when I shoot a check, hence why my duplicate point tolerance is set to 0.000. It's annoying to either stake out the point first or just shoot and then go into point manager to check it.?ÿ

I don't quite understand the point of storing another. It just adds another useless coordinate to the point every time I backsight in 2 faces (options in that case are discard or store another).

Store another adds an observation that can then be used during post-processing for QA/QC or adjustments. Take a look at the data in TBC and you'll see where the additional shots go.

In the case of terrestrial observations, F1 and F2 observations are used to compute mean turned angles in the raw data (again, needed for QA/QC and adjustments), and in the case of backsight observations, you'll see an orientation correction based upon the splits between the two to adjust for collimation error.

It is weird that it isn't giving you the out of tolerance message, though. If you're running integrated I would be sure to check both styles that are being used by it.

I was taken aback by that statement, "I don't quite understand the point of storing another".

Redundant data is always good to have, especially for an adjustment. I never understand the users who give points a different name every time they shoot it, or users who just download coordinates from the DC.?ÿ

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@rover83?ÿ

I'm sure it would make more sense to me if I had experience with TBC, but at this point even our office only has basic knowledge. I don't think they would be able to explain when it would be preferable to "store another" instead of "store as check". I've just always been storing as a check and it's always given me the deltas. The first thing I did when it acted up was check the survey styles for both the rover duplicate point tolerance and my s5. The IS rover (integrated mode) survey style has just very basic settings, basically just the 2 survey styles used in conjunction and the vertical offset from prism to GPS. All the tolerances are set to 0.000 Hz and vertical and auto average is turned off on both.?ÿ

Another thing that randomly changed a while back is the "reset rtk" option disappeared from the gnss satellites page. I used to be able to just click the gnss icon and then "reset rtk" at the bottom to lose lock, and regain lock by the time I backed out and changed my point number back to the previous so I could average them....now I have to toggle through the sv sets or hold my hand above the river to lose lock. Either one takes about 3 times as long. My coworkers tsc7 still has the reset rtk option on his. This change in behavior actually happened before the last software update.?ÿ

@john-hamilton?ÿ

So can you explain the difference to me between "store as check" and "store another" besides the label? I really don't believe I was complaining about redundant data as the entire question is about storing a check shot.?ÿ

Not to mention that my complaint is about it not showing me the deltas of my check point and the reason I am trying to "store as check" is that I fully agree about using a new name over and over again for checks. It gets messy when there is 7000+ points in some subdivisions I work in.?ÿ

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@john-hamilton?ÿ

So can you explain the difference to me between "store as check" and "store another" besides the label? I really don't believe I was complaining about redundant data as the entire question is about storing a check shot.?ÿ

Not to mention that my complaint is about it not showing me the deltas of my check point and the reason I am trying to "store as check" is that I fully agree about using a new name over and over again for checks. It gets messy when there is 7000+ points in some subdivisions I work in.?ÿ

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Won't be for long, it's all going machine control from here on out. Grading, Curb, Sidewalks, all that's left is monumentation and maybe sewer.?ÿ

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So can you explain the difference to me between "store as check" and "store another" besides the label? I really don't believe I was complaining about redundant data as the entire question is about storing a check shot.?ÿ

Observations marked as "check" are not included in adjustments within TBC.

@steinhoff?ÿ

So in my case, I'm almost always going to be storing as a check.?ÿ

Either way, I don't get the option to pick anymore because it's just storing it as a check and not bringing up the screen where you select from check, store another, overwrite, etc.?ÿ

So in my case, I'm almost always going to be storing as a check.?ÿ

If I'm reading between the lines correctly this is mostly for construction work, right? If that's the case, you should be fine. If your control network isn't already tight you're kinda SOL anyway. Dangerous to readjust control midway through construction.

EDIT: at the same time "check" observations can always been converted to "normal" observations to be used in TBC anyway...

@steinhoff?ÿ

Yes, most of my work is in subdivisions and we have the control set in UTM and any adjustments made before we start layout.?ÿ

I'm doing even more "check shots" now because I'm shooting a quick gnss check shot on every point just for redundancy. For these checks I store through the staking menu but on control I would prefer to measure a normal sideshot and store as a check.?ÿ

@350rocketmike Either way, I don't get the option to pick anymore because it's just storing it as a check and not bringing up the screen where you select from check, store another, overwrite, etc.

At first I thought it might be because the original point is classed as a stake point, but Access will still test a stake point using the duplicate tolerance.

I still think it might be the Duplicate Point Tolerance of either the Conventional or GNSS survey style that is being used for the integrated survey. Check both of those survey styles, and if they are set up correctly, then it's time for a support ticket.

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Another thing that randomly changed a while back is the "reset rtk" option disappeared from the gnss satellites page....now I have to toggle through the sv sets or hold my hand above the river to lose lock.

I've never seen a menu option randomly disappear without an update.

In any case, no need to do any toggling or manually break lock. Menu -> Measure -> RTK Initialization, tap Reset.

@rover83?ÿ

I never noticed that rtk initialization toggle before. I will look for that next time I get the GPS out.?ÿ

I did double check the tolerance setting for both again after you mentioned it the first time and as I thought both were 0.000 Hz and vertical just like the picture I posted.?ÿ

Maybe it is only the staked and stored points that it wasn't giving me the option and Deltas page...I know the last couple times it happened it was a staked and stored point, but I thought it happened with at least one that wasn't...but now I'm trying to remember for sure.?ÿ

I'll take a stab

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maybe the math engines 8s at it's asymptotically limited ability of the shot is so close...

I know when the curve routine is handed a shot that crosses that tolerance (or used to, I'm out of that loop since the past two updates....could be?ÿ coded away at this point) it literally crashes and shuts down.

And if you didn't go into the file to delete the offender data point it will continue to crash until you do.

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@rj-schneider?ÿ

Yes I believe you're right. I'll have to do more experimenting the day after tomorrow (tomorrow I'm helping another party chief and using his equipment). I'll have to double check if it's only happening in integrated mode and if it's only happening with staked and stored points or any point.?ÿ

@rj-schneider?ÿ

Yeah that's what I typically do. Even so I'm pretty sure I've never had an issue in the past shooting check points to observed control points either. It's only began happening recently. I feel like it's only happening in integrated mode which I've only started using regularly the last little while. And I was usually shooting a separate point for my gnss check shots for the most part so I didn't run into it right away.?ÿ

@350rocketmike I have seen this a time or two. When observing the same point. I use the same point # name. ?ÿI never completely finished trying to find out but I always store another except if I am done with all my control and it is adjusted and finalized. Then I will store as a check. But if you are performing a check shot then just like when you are in robot only mode and do the BS check routine you can do a check TOPO and place that point name/# in the field. The good thing about checking this way is if for some reason you need another observation you can change an observation to a enable as a check or the other way in the TBC office software. Now in integrated surveying and I have not done this since the survey controller days. ?ÿBut check your survey styles in both like mentioned above for duplicate point tolerances. Also I remember reading somewhere that in a more recent Trimble access manual or help guide something about being able to measure a point with both rtk and robot at same time or using vertical only for one and hz on other. If I didnƒ??t dream this and i read this looking for something else it might be that since you are in integrated mode it has a setting somewhere making this happen. So it might be doing what it is supposed to do in that function. ?ÿWhen I have seen it not give me an option doing rtk only I would just re observe and then it would prompt me. Now I seen this a couple times and never had a chance to really check it out to see why. ?ÿWhat i did find was if and when I type the point name/# in and it doesnƒ??t give me the first warning which is this point already exists message I would simply re type it hit enter before measuring and then it would prompt with it already exist and give me the option to overwrite store another store as a check etc. i have seen it with robot only and rtk only. So it could be a bug or it could have been an old man not paying attention as well. When i saw this it was with a tsc3 running 2014 access. And i could barely see the screeso i never got real alarmed.?ÿ

You are pretty smart and have grit and really look for the answers. Find out if yall have a network license for tbc or what. If a network license check one out on your laptop or whatever. And start playing around in it for fun. Just send your job file to the office as usual and keep a copy for yourself. Drag and drop the job file in. Look at optical spreadsheet look at the mean angles results. Look at vector spreadsheet. You donƒ??t need to worry about messing something up break it your data is in office hands you can play around and see what TBC shows and look at your data in access side byside. Run a check shot report on both. Run a survey job report. If you can you will start preparing yourself for the next level. If office doesnƒ??t have time or will to train you. Train yourself. And use the resources here as well.?ÿ

in my opinion and thats all it is. ?ÿYou are ripe for a year or atleast some time in the office. Not necessarily in a production mode but some basic qa/qc and such. That will open your eyes to a lot and give you a better understanding of how and what and why you do what you do in the field. It is hard these days because of more work than people. I brought a chief in early today. For this same reason. Two hours just placing field notes in server and downloads. He said oh wow I never knew what it was doing on your end. Now when i ask him for something he understands i am not senile its I canƒ??t read his mind. Good luck man. You keep pounding away you will figure it out.?ÿ

@350rocketmike

Out of curiosity (THRAC alert)...

How do your projects get handled in UTM? Are you using Advanced Geodetic options to conventional setups in Access? Or applying a combined scale factor?

Obviously it varies with location....around my neck of the woods, SPCS is about ~50ppm versus 370ppm for UTM 10 north. We're not much above sea level so elevation factor is minimized, but the difference is still about 0.3' per mile versus 2 feet per mile, and in UTM a 300ft conventional backsight using a straight UTM projection will disagree with GNSS for over a tenth horizontally.

(edit: should have said "can" disagree, not "will"....obviously depends on azimuth/direction.)

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@olemanriver?ÿ

Don't have time to read your message entirely yet, but what I circled might be the work around. I already have found when I go to shoot the GPS check in staking I back up and it shows I'm about to stake the same point but if I don't type it over it will jump to the next (if point increment is 1) even though it's showing its ready to stake the right point.?ÿ

Also I noticed before it occasionally wouldn't give me that first warning you are talking about but it would still come up with the warning upon storing and show me the deltas.

Using Trimble is about constantly coming up with workarounds for all the glitches. Well any survey software really I'm guessing. Not like we have a ton of choices.?ÿ

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