Tracer Triangulation

good article. I'd heard of the product but had no idea Jan Van Sickle was part of it.

I well remember the times when this was happening. The BLM, where I worked, looked into it. It was effective in certain situations. The timing was not good for the product as the EDM's and GPS were just being introduced. If it had been developed 30 years earlier it may have gained a foothold.

Good article and part of our history. Thanks for writing it.
another Jerry

While he didn't use it for triangulation I knew a surveyor in south Georgia that used tracers to determine a line to be cut through the woods and swamps. Wouldn't hit dead on but got close enough to "correct up" get the line straight on the second time. He used and old 03A3 with military surplus tracers mounted beneath a tripod. Used a carpenters level to get vertical.

Andy

“I knew a surveyor in south Georgia that used tracers to determine a line to be cut through the woods and swamps.”

Good ‘ole “Georgia Ingenuity” :good:

Jerry: Nice article! Thanks for posting it.

The most important issue that the "tracer" could not overcome was the fire hazard that it caused in the forests. Worked in theory but was not deemed practical. Similar principle to the FS-BLM lazer range pole developed by RCA, which also had limited success.

What about the danger of the bullet falling on someone? That was mentioned but not discussed. You are trying to shoot vertically, so it would land pretty close to the operator.

"The most important issue that the "tracer" could not overcome was the fire hazard that it caused in the forests."

There was NEVER a risk of fire as explained in my story. Magnesium tracers, unlike regular bullet tracers that are viewed from behind, produce "light" and not fire. Yes, there was heat generated, but the heat was dispensed by the time the bullet began its downward fall. Tests were also done on the speed of returning bullet which actually tumble due to them longer being in the spiral of the upward motion. It was determined that a person could get a nasty bump on the head, but most likely would never seriously injure or kill someone. I have more data on this if anyone is interested in the perceived fire danger or downward descent of the bullet.

My Dad used weather balloons... If you tether them with 3 strings you can keep them pretty stable, especially early in the morning before the wind comes up.

I am not sure if you are getting your information "only from Van Sickles own self promotional material" or from some verifiable source.

One or our BLM guys got all excited about this 'back then' and wanted to do it in spite of various problems. What he found out, (although somewhat anecdotal) was that it was actually illegal to even possess the ammunition in the State of California. True or false, just what I heard.

Just do a google search and you find 2 or 3 references to fires started by mag tracer solutions.

Of course are you a promotor or a journalist seeking actual information? That is a rhetorical question.

In that later category did you consult any references other to Van Sickles own self promotional and possibly biased material? Perhaps there is limited available on line in which case perhaps your critical mind should kick in.

Van Sickle had a vested interest in promoting his invention. That would be fine if it was viable. As I recall he wrote several articles in if not national pubs then CA pubs saying that his technology was the only was some surveys could have been done properly. Sort of sounded like these were surveys he or his surrogates had big interests on in eastern CA probably bids, maybe they lost or failed on? I don't actually know.

When I read those articles my thought was he as comparing incompetent FS contractors with his own inperienced surveyors, both of which who had probably never worked in forested lands before.

"My imagination can do better than your incompetent work." Wow I was not impressed with that analysis. His analysis was very defective. Let me count the ways, but on to a related topic.

I have been involved in numerous laser rangepole survey 'experiments' and projects. While not the mag tracer, mentioned in the thread there are some things similar.

The device costs the tax payers probably 600K$ or more funded jointly by BLM and USFS. I doubt it produced anything of value. Much work was attempted by varios offices including me in CA but mostly multiple townships in MT using 'laser rangepole triangulation'. I would say that 90% or more of the projects were failures and almost all of the work had to be redone at the cost of perhaps multiple $1M or more to the tax payer.

I have stories that you could not handle about all that.

So on the first level I say a lot of what you say in the article is blowing smoke.

Now if you could blow smoke today we have another generation of tech with these high power green lasers to revisit this whole idea.

So do some testing of your own before you just repeat what your biased sources say?

Fair? no, yes. Just my feedback...

Tracer Triangulation - Jerry Wahl

Jerry Wahl - Please post the links to the 2 - 3 website references that you claim have stated that mag tracers have caused fires in the course of them being used for tracer triangulation.

My research on this subject spanned several years. In addition to twice interviewing the son of the inventor of the device, I also interviewed users, the last producer of the device - Chief Industries, and the Hornady ammunition company. I did extensive research on this article and those who personally know me know that I do not "blow smoke" when I author articles.

Several years ago I posted a request for information on this article and you were one of those who positively responded. You even sent me information on the laser triangulation, so your recent rant is very perplexing to say the least.

I have a file 1 1/2" thick on this subject and would be glad to make you copies to hopefully satisfy your misgivings as to the accuracy of my story. Documented tests were done by USGS and the U.S. Forest Service, among other agencies, who gave their approval. Several state agencies and private companies also had made written correspondence giving positive results after using the device. I doubt the Forest Service would approve or take part in testing a device that would be detrimental to forests.

Since you do not make your email available here, I am unable to contact you directly. Send it to me and I will scan correspondence including Hornady's testing on the bullets. They are the experts.