A post about Hawaii surveys mentioned land court (Torrens) system.
We have Torrens Titles here (Tasmania) which originated well over 150 years ago.
There were still old 'General Law' (still a few) Deeds (Conveyances) running in parallel but these were gradually transferred to Torrens Titles.
It is a far superior system and removes the issues relating to deeds and conveyances not properly executed and or held in solicitors offices and not elsewhere as well as searching through successive transfers and carving up deeds that inevitably lead to costly arguments.
I find this interesting as being a USA state Hawaii adopted a different system.
Has this ever been considered on 'The Mainland'
Growing up an through both systems I can fully appreciate and value why they quickly adopted the newer system.
My introduction into one of the many complexities was at an early stage of my professional career when I looked at a buying a house with General Law Title and found only three of the four sides had been described in the deed.
The solicitor at the time advised me on any amount of issues and I promptly left that house for others to decide on.
Hawaii experienced a transition from monarchy to republic to territory to statehood, and conveyance complications that go with those changes.
The Land Court system here evolved due to lack of title insurance. In early days, obtaining clear title was difficult not because of location issues, but due to interest issues. Risk that a claimant could arise from the ether and challenge ones ownership interest. Whats interesting is that the properties in Ld. Ct. are still required (by mortgage lenders I suppose) to purchase title insurance.
The theory being that Land Court would start anew, and pass clean title. (Location issues can arise due to monumentation/occupation, but adverse possession is not recognized in Ld.Ct.) I recall that about 1/3 of private land is in Ld.Ct.
Some properties in Hawaii are in the Land Court system and others in regular system; deed cuts from, or mapped subdivisions of, Royal Grants, land Patents and the like. Hawaii law requires deeds be described a certain way. My experience is their is no checking of the deeds when recorded at Bureau of Conveyance. We have a HUGE problem w/ unlicensed survey practice here, and rent-a-stamps, so their are ways for 'polluted' deeds to enter the regular system.
Ld. Ct. mapping is funky. Just the bare facts and all courses conform to past records. If I measure a block at 1010 ft. and the record says 1000 ft. Ld. Ct does not want to know, or have it reported. It assumes all survey monumentation performed early on is perfect. We fix it in the field and keep it a secret!
Let's not forget that Massachusetts has the Land Court, a Torrens based registration system. However, it is not required and is only used to resolve problems in title of location. But once the land is registered it is free from potential adverse claims, either fee or easement.
Dtp
Not an expert on this, just a frequent consumer...
But Mexico has a similar land registration process. Very anal, base documentation includes a survey (with geodetic ties), it even includes copies of ID of the many witnesses and all the others attending the closing.
Getting every single interested party, their attorneys, translators, Notary (actually an attorney with special authorization), etc. in one room at the same time is a true challenge, and the meeting takes at least 2 hours for all the document to be read aloud and being assured everyone understands the legal consequences. After all is said and done, fees paid to all, the 50+ pages get bound and courier to the State Capitol to the Public Registry, then the original wad goes back to the Buyer. Two or three months end to end is as fast as it ever goes.
We end up with clear title that is virtually irrefutable.
Many, many people shortcut the process (due to abject poverty, or just tightwads) and that is where the fun begins.
If it won't pass muster with the Notary for going to the Public Registry you have squat.
Growing up in a Torrens system in Tasmania I came to appreciate the benefits our system offers.
The majority of titles are backed by a sound survey and the more modern ones definitely so.
Australia had a Surveyor General for each state and they were people of influence and an important Government Office with Clout.
It is to their credit we have the cadaster system of today.
Surveys (nowadays) must all be on state bearing datum (MGA), with coordinates of a few corners on our GDA94 grid, but ground measurements are shown on the Plan and Survey Notes.
We are regulated and audited.
Shonkiness and sloppy surveys are not tolerated. Multi marked corners don't happen and the survey profession works with ease (in majority cases) amongst the community.
(there is a general respect for Registered Land Surveyors as we are titled by an Act of Parliament)
Where we find errors or differences with other surveyors work we work with them (surveyors) not against them and on those odd occasions any such errors are rectified.
One just cannot under the Torrens system have two owners with a claim to the same piece of land by way of a 'legitimate certificate of title'.
Under the Old System, Deeds, that could happen as well as chunks of land being excluded bit never properly titled.
When a Title is issued there are 2 Originals.
The Titles Office keeps one and the other is sent to the owner of whoever holds any mortgage.
To perform any dealing with the title by way of subdivision or sale both originals must come together at the Titles Office.
Any lost original involves and onerous task of advertising such and any claims of ownership by others must be made and proved.
Incidentally such a piece of revered document these days is nothing flash and one could get a far better certificate from a local newsagent or drug store over yonder that looks like it has meaning.
Our surveys are lodged with a central office (Lands Titles Office) and here in Tasmania are examined for mathematical errors and any conflicts of existing title boundaries exposed by our surveys are either accepted or perhaps queried.
Rarely do the Titles Office disagree with a surveyors boundary judgment (we are the 'experts' but not in an uppity way)
Where conflict does exist and our survey is accepted then contiguous titles don't get corrected unless requested by the other party.
Their 'conflict' boundary doesn't change on paper until such a survey is made and lodged with the Titles Office.
I've done a few 'Rectification Surveys', where the old title created perhaps from old surveys and/or compiled for a collection of such, has obvious apparent discrepancies between the paper plan and whats on the ground.
Lawyers seldom become involved in issues unless someone is being obnoxious and obstructive in some way.
We can and do have Adverse Possession but that is a rigorous process and involves full survey of affected land and affidavits from past owners, others in the community that have observed the land over time, other agencies etc.
Our Titles are of guaranteed ownership. Not boundary location or measurement.
But as mentioned majority of Titles have a valid survey behind them.
There are titles that are called "Sketch by way of illustration only' and they are old plans cobbled together from previous plans, conveyances etc that in their entirety have never been fully surveyed.
Those title plans can lead to some interesting and occasionally large difference from plan measurements.
Though it costs more to resurvey such I advise owners of such land to have their title updated when undertaking a subdivision that then creates a proper and meaningful plan, where areas and measurements are meaningful.
When resurveying old titles and we differ from original measurements then the new ones form the basis of new plans.
It gets a bit complicated on remarks where we discover errors or differences and can only legally identify the area depicted by the title.
In such cases I explain the differences and they either ignore any discrepancies, alter a fence(s), have a rectification survey undertaken or an adverse possession claim if latter is in their favour. Latter has to be worth it as that isn't cheap.
A remark survey doesn't change a title but merely seeks to identify the title plan as depicted by way of past surveys on the ground.
Conveyances and 'Old System' Titles do still exist, mainly being odd ones tucked away in solicitors drawers or under the bed of an owner and which didn't surface in the drive a few years ago to convert all old system titles to Torrens.
Thankfully they are of the minority.
That's a bit of a run down on surveying in Tasmania.
lanceboyle93101, post: 356009, member: 2061 wrote: Hawaii experienced a transition from monarchy to republic to territory to statehood, and conveyance complications that go with those changes.
The Land Court system here evolved due to lack of title insurance. In early days, obtaining clear title was difficult not because of location issues, but due to interest issues. Risk that a claimant could arise from the ether and challenge ones ownership interest. Whats interesting is that the properties in Ld. Ct. are still required (by mortgage lenders I suppose) to purchase title insurance.The theory being that Land Court would start anew, and pass clean title. (Location issues can arise due to monumentation/occupation, but adverse possession is not recognized in Ld.Ct.) I recall that about 1/3 of private land is in Ld.Ct.
Some properties in Hawaii are in the Land Court system and others in regular system; deed cuts from, or mapped subdivisions of, Royal Grants, land Patents and the like. Hawaii law requires deeds be described a certain way. My experience is their is no checking of the deeds when recorded at Bureau of Conveyance. We have a HUGE problem w/ unlicensed survey practice here, and rent-a-stamps, so their are ways for 'polluted' deeds to enter the regular system.
Ld. Ct. mapping is funky. Just the bare facts and all courses conform to past records. If I measure a block at 1010 ft. and the record says 1000 ft. Ld. Ct does not want to know, or have it reported. It assumes all survey monumentation performed early on is perfect. We fix it in the field and keep it a secret!
It never made sense to me that Land Court properties still require title insurance. It seems like a great a deal for the tiltle insurance companies with very little risk (being that the state guarantees clean title). I wonder how many claims have been paid out.
Since the retracement surveys in Hawaii are not filed/recorded and the monuments do not require an LS number, it was difficult to determine a monument's pedigree (if not an original ) . Unfortunately, this led to pin cushions being fairly common in many rural areas.
HICALS, post: 356095, member: 6788 wrote: It never made sense to me that Land Court properties still require title insurance. It seems like a great a deal for the tiltle insurance companies with very little risk (being that the state guarantees clean title). I wonder how many claims have been paid out.
Since the retracement surveys in Hawaii are not filed/recorded and the monuments do not require an LS number, it was difficult to determine a monument's pedigree (if not an original ) . Unfortunately, this led to pin cushions being fairly common in many rural areas.
Claims Paid? that would be very interesting to know
Title Insurance is required? by who? the Lender?
People (and Lenders) from other areas of the US are comfortable with "title insurance" even if Buyers don't really understand that the vast majority of those policies are Lender Polices and only protect the LENDER. Pay Off the Mortgage (a foreign concept, but just take my word for it, it happens) and the title company is now Completely out of the picture. (Owner Policies are a small add-on cost, Ask!)
over here Title Insurance was unheard of a decade or so back, but now available. Actually our land registration system is so anal and secure it is not necessary at all. I don't borrow on my properties, but I understand the Mexican lenders do Not require any title insurance, but they do participate in the closing process and are thereby privy to the documentation of the chain of title and absence of liens.
I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy but I have my limits.
