Survey doesn't match deeds

You could run into some issues that could only be resolved by a Judge. If all land owners agreed to the corner locations as surveyed and "bless them" accordingly in 2003 then you could have a hard time convencing the courts in your favor even if the survey was incorrect. Case law is your State would help you out. I'm surprised that the Licensing Board didn't have a third party look into it, but they could have been looking at practice proceedures and felt they were justified. I find more often than not that there seems to be more then one solution to a property location, and it depends on best available evidence. Did the surveyor find something in the field or by deed that caused this variation? Possibly.

It is difficult to make meaningful comments without a review of all the documentary evidence (Deeds and Surveys in particular) by someone familiar with your State boundary laws.

Contrary to popular belief, boundary location rarely has to do strictly with numbers and measurements. The physical evidence is generally paramount so there may be some good reason for the discrepancies.

The discrepancies in those numbers do not sound unreasonable, depending on other circumstances known only to you and the surveyor at this point.

"We both attempted to get the original surveyor to correct thess obvious mistakes, but he refused. I then filed a complaint with the state licensing board, who just ruled that the survey was done in a competant manner and took no action."

Perhaps the board reviewed it and decided that it is you and your friend who are mistaken.

A caution to the original poster: Hardly ever are the actual field measurements identical with the deed distances!

Land Surveyors use all evidence of the lines that they are retracing and sometimes that evidence does not measure the same as the deed.

We also refer to this surveyors who blindly use the deed distances and ignore all other evidence as "expert measurers" in a technician sort of way.

Keith

That was my thought.

El Lobo,

"Tax parcels" could mean a variety of things. Are they parcels that were deeded by metes-and-bounds descriptions rather than by reference to an existing recorded map or plat? And if so, were they surveyed at the time they were created? That could make a considerable difference in how reliable their dimensions are.

The difference between North 70 degrees West and North 73 degrees West might be significant, but then again it might be due to a difference in the basis of bearings. Surveyors' bearings are nearly always referenced to an assumed north rather than true or geographic north. And the assumed north is often different from one survey or legal description to the next.

The difference between 216 feet and 230 feet would be a major error in measurement. But is there a controlling call in the legal description that overrides the distance, such as "...216 feet to Smith's NW corner..."? Are there monuments from a previous survey referred to in the deed that are 230 feet apart? This is hard to evaluate from a distance.

Survey markers 100 feet out of position would be extraordinary. I've been surveying for about 40 years and have seen them 15 or 20 feet out, but nothing like 100 feet. Are there any occupation lines such as fences, walls, hedges, or ditches, and if so how do the markers compare with them?

The only way to be sure of what's going on is to have a new survey prepared. Look into any legal issues after that.

Survey Done Competently But Lines Are In Error?

Was there in fact a hearing on your complaint?

Did you attend said hearing with contrary information?

You just may have precluded any legal basis for action against said surveyor.

If you are dissatisfied with the survey youy have you need to hire a different survyor at about twice your original costs. You want to request all filed notes from surveyor one at some point for surveyor two to compare against his own. Sorry but in a situation likes this you may not want to hire your friend if you want him to remain a friend. The above also assumes you have fully paid surveyor one.

You may get better responses if you give some location information.

If you contemplate legal action expect your attorney to be twice your total survey costs to date.

Paul in PA

> "We both attempted to get the original surveyor to correct thess obvious mistakes, but he refused. I then filed a complaint with the state licensing board, who just ruled that the survey was done in a competant manner and took no action."
>
> Perhaps the board reviewed it and decided that it is you and your friend who are mistaken.

A licensing Board has no authority to determine where property boundaries are located. All a licensing board can do is determine if the methods and procedures are within a "standard of care". A licensed surveyor can perform a survey fully within the "standards" of performing a survey and yet his opinion of where the boundaries lie could be completely wrong!!! As Jeff Lucas points out, it is like a doctor removing the wrong leg in a surgery, he can perform the operation completely according "to the book", but yet the outcome was wrong.

If a landowner has doubts about the resulting opinion of a boundary survey, he has several choices including: 1) Meet with the surveyor and have him walk you through his survey, evidence gathered, and his decision process. 2) Hire a competent surveyor to thoroughly review the survey in question and perform another survey. Make sure the surveyor you hire is well versed in property boundary law in your state. 3) Meet with your neighbors and try to work out the differences of opinion of the location and hire a competent surveyor to help you monument and properly document your solution. 4) Hire an attorney who is competent in property boundary law in your state. 5) Live with the results of the first survey.

Good luck.

Survey Done Competently But Lines Are In Error?

Thanks for replies. Several answers.

My friend is a licensed, practicing surveyor in my state (Washington), whom I employ on another project involving one of the rivers. He was paid to review the survey and will be employed to do a new survey.

The starting point for both the deed descriptions, and the survey, is one of those standard co-ordinates (don't know the legal term!) (A Quarter corner between sections 10 and 11, Township 10 North of Range 9 W.W.M.)

The deed reads such: "Beginning at a point 8.75 chains north 40 chains west of the Quarter corner between Sections 10 and 11, Township 10 North of Range 9 W.W.M.; thence west 6.5 chains to the true point of beginning being the Southwest corner of land in Lot 6 of said Section; thence west 225 feet . . . . .

The survey starts at that same corner but, instead of heading due west a total of 40 chains, he headed N86-52'11"W. that is, 3+ degrees off due west. By the time he got 40 chains away from the starting point, he was over 100 feet away from the southwest corner of my neighbors property. All boundary lines in the survey are off by that same 3+ degrees.

FYI, the property is an approximately 8.5 acre field, at this location: 46deg 21min 58.35 sec N 123 deg 46min 52.60W. The three houses to the right of the field are the three properties in question.

Here is a link to the original survey: http://sdrv.ms/UYdmYh

Here is a link to the first deed: http://sdrv.ms/UYdqqY, second page: http://sdrv.ms/RrkQ8r

Here is a link to the second deed: http://sdrv.ms/RrkWNc. This is the one described above. The first deed is the one for the

Here is a link to the third deed: http://sdrv.ms/QY3Iqq. Note that this deed does NOT have the same starting point as the first two deeds above. My surveyor screwed up on this also.

Finally note that the surveyor found the old fence on our property and noted it on his survey. It appears as if the fence was built fairly close to the deed boundaries.

(More on the complaint later.)

Survey Done Competently But Lines Are In Error?

Your POB according to the deeds is:

"being the Southwest corner of JoC. Kolback in Lot 6 of said Section;"

That might not (probably not given the even forty chains and cardinal directions) be where the run in bearing and distances would put it. It doesn't appear that the section lines shown on the survey are cardinal so there are several possibilities for the intent of the directions of the cardinal POB tie lines.

The survey posted does address these issues (deed west vs measured bearing). I'm not saying right or wrong but it appears the surveyor did address the issue. There is also the limitation in the two deeds as being a portion of Lot 6. That would override the POB run in if the POB is on the boundary of Lot 6.

These things are never as simple a 40 chains north of and west etc. probably hacked on someones desk or kitchen table eons ago with out a survey. So look for the Southwest corner of JoC. Kolback in Lot 6 of said Section. Maybe from the Kilback description you will get the same POB run in so that would not do you much good. It's rarely as easy as north, south, east & west some distance. You can go through a ton of deed research and chain of title to sort these out. Then you must consider the common law if a long time has elapsed and occupied boundaries have been respected (varies by state). Anyway I wouldn't assume it wrong just because the measured distances don't match exactly with the deed distances. Sometimes they do but in old descriptions in my experience most times they don't.

If the 1914 deed is a cut out from a larger parcel check the description of that one. Is this out of the middle, side, what did the grantor own. How was it patented etc.

You most likely have a situation that will take much more than having a surveyor lay out your deed to resolve the issues.

Survey Done Competently But Lines Are In Error?

If your new surveyor goes out and stakes your bearings and distances to match your original description, then he is messing up big time.
Noting the age of the original deed it would seem to be bearings based on a magnetic north. Thus you have a problem with magnetic declination . Note the 2003 survey is based on the state plane grid system. There's no way the bearings will match. The surveyor would need to figure a declination difference and then translate it to the state plane values he used.
I would be REAL careful saying that the 2003 surveyor messed up when ypu are trying to match apples and oranges. The differance between grid north and magnetic north can be more than you are thinking.
Distances can vary due to methodology and technology employed during both surveys. They are off a little morer than I would have thought, but it is unclear from your data what made him stop the call where he did.
Either way, I would do a lot of tip-toeing before I said anything else publically about this issue. There is a very LARGE chance that you are wrong.
Actually, posting this on a public internet shows you evidently have more good money than good sense. It will be better if your surveyor does not know about this site. Airing the records as you did could possibly hurt you later if you have to go to court.

More Likely Your Deed Does Not Match The Survey

Assuming "ElLobo" means you are Charles Wolfe I do not see your deed.

I would venture no further comments till I had a complete current title package in hand, all road records, maps and bridge construction plans, plus every deed and map I see mentioned on the face of either survey.

Paul in PA

i've seen some old surveys that placed the property in the wrong location by over 100 feet, but I can only think of one recently and that was only due to poor research.

the whole problem must be researched and resolved before deciding there are issues. it is quite possible things are off, but the notification to the board was a bit overboard. have your friend do the work all over again, if you then know of a mistake you can send it to the other surveyor. from there you can decide how to proceed.

Survey Done Competently But Lines Are In Error?

>
> That might not (probably not given the even forty chains and cardinal directions) be where the run in bearing and distances would put it. It doesn't appear that the section lines shown on the survey are cardinal so there are several possibilities for the intent of the directions of the cardinal POB tie lines.

The section lines are probably a lot closer to cardinal than they look. The basis of bearings on the survey is Washington State Plane South Zone; Range 9 West is going to have a pretty severe convergence angle between grid and "true" north. Not 3 degrees, but convergence should account for much of the difference.

Survey Done Competently But Lines Are In Error?

Thanks for reply. All deeds and surveys are public records in Washington state, available online. Also, we paid for this survey, not any of the other three tax lot owners.

As I said, I am not a surveyor, but I do understand the difference between magnetic north and true north. Does anyone know if, at our location, the difference is 3+ degrees between the two?

Our recorded deed, as well as all deeds back to the original one, in 2003, convey "Government Lots 5 and 6, lying Westerly of State Route 4 and Northerly of South Valley Road, except those portions conveyed in Volume 56 of Deeds at page 50, being Tax 26; Volume 114 of Deeds at page 571, being Tax 13; and Volume 145 of Deeds at page 685, being Tax 28, records of Pacific County, Washington."

That is, the deed chain of all 4 properties (ours, plus the three tax lots) are consistent through time, back through the earliest deed, which is dated 11 April 1908. If you read that date, it turns out to be the first of the 3 tax lots, and the legal description bounds the lot on the north by a river. The bearing and distance to that river indicates that the description is in terms of true north, not magnetic north.

Our property turns out to be the master property, since the original family owners of our property is the same family that conveyed the three tax lots. That is, tax lot 1 was conveyed in 1908, tax lot 2 in 1942, the third tax lot in 1948, and ours in 2003. The 1908 and 1942 conveyed lots are still in the same family that received the lots back then, although, obviously, the original owners are long gone.

One other thing. If you look at the survey, you will see that an old fence was noted on the survey and our surveyor noted that he "Found 1/2' Iron Pipe at fence corner." Can anyone give me any logical reason why the starting point of the survey (at the southwest corner of the first tax lot) was over 100 feet away from that fence corner, with the found iron pipe?

It seems more logical that the iron pipe was placed by some long lost survey, a fence corner post was placed next to that iron pipe.

One more question. He placed a note on his survey, saying that the deed for the bottom tax lot was 'ambiguous'. Is there some exact meaning for this term, in survey talk? I asked him this question, and he never responded.

One other note. If you read the legal description for the third tax lot, it doesn't come off the same starting point as the other two tax lots (the 8.75 and 40 chains thingie.) Rather, this deed says, "Starting at a point on County Road 806 feet North 80 degrees 30' East of Northeast Corner of Northwest quarter of Southwest quarter of section ten Twp 10 North Range 9 West of W.M. I believe this point is to the southwest of our property, not to the east, as the previous two tax lots (and the survey).

Regarding making this problem/issue public, I am just asking for suggestions as to how I can go about getting this mess straightened out? The surveyor is OUR surveyor, not our neighbor's, and our deeds are the only ones that reference the survey. What kind of a claim can our neighbors make, since their deeds apparently stop at their legal description, while our property stops at the survey lines.

So, rather than an overlap in ownership, there appears to be a gap (the difference between a true north/east bearing and a magnetic north/east bearing. Is it absolutely clear that the deed bearings are, by definition, magnetic, not true, bearings? Can someone provide a reference.

Anyhow, I DO appreciate everyone's responses.

More Likely Your Deed Does Not Match The Survey

The deed that we received is here: http://sdrv.ms/WiAKTG

I do not have the county or state highway surveys of either road.

Where in PA are you located? I was born and raised in western PA, Steeler country.

More Likely Your Deed Does Not Match The Survey

I do know that the highway running east/west, including the bridge, was constructed in 1925. The bridge was replaced in 1986, but was moved approximately 20 feet downstream. The owner of our property back then (a descendent of the original homsteader family) granted an easement for this.

For your information, the large 'hook' you see in our river bank is due to erosion/avulsion caused by the redirection of the river by the 1986 bridge piers. Those piers were placed at a 15 degree angle to the direction of the old piers, from the original 1926 bridge. You can see that 15 degree angle in a GooglEarth view of the property by looking at the two end abutments of the bridge with respect to the highway itself.

My surveyor friend is also a Geomorphologist who did the engineering analysis relating to the effects of the bridge on the river, hence on the riverbank of our property.

For those of you interested, here is the GooglEarth view of the bridge with the 1926, 1939, 1986, and 2011 positions of the riverbank shown, based upon the 1908 deed and aerial photos from 1939 onward. http://sdrv.ms/WiCyMs

Finally, the SkyDrive location of this picture also contains some pictures of the bridge, as well as our property and the bank, including the 1939 aerial photo and the 1875 'survey'!

Survey Done Competently But Lines Are In Error?

In general, all deeds seem to be consistent with the actual boundary of our property being about where the fence is, on the survey. And all boundaries shown on the survey approximate the fence EXCEPT the first leg of the survey, from the POB (the southwest corner of the Kolbeck property.) Those first two corner posts, from the survey, are over 100 feet from the fence, and that means approximately 0.6 acres of land (between the survey and the fence.)

There is an additional complication. Turns out that my ex-neighbor, who owns tax lot 28 (the one with the ambiguous deed) relied on this survey, in 2006, to obtain the building permit to construct a garage about 5 feet away from that survey boundary line. His property is currently in foreclosure. Anyhow, it is probable that the garage straddles the actual boundary line. So now you have a bank and a title company involved! You can see his house, and the garage, in GooglEarth.

Furthermore, it is also probable that a corner of the house itself straddles the LEGAL DESCRIPTION boundary line for his lot. However, since the house was built in the 1940s, there would, obviously, be no real problems with this, from our, or the legal, standpoint. Just complications, since the property is in foreclosure.