I think that I'd be interested to know how the RTK vectors were weighted if the RTK tie to Pt. 12 is what determined the uncertainty of the direction at Pt. 31 where Pt. 12 was the BS. If Jim runs the adjustment GPS only, what is the uncertainty of Pt. 12? Practice tip : You'll never go far wrong blaming RTK.
But the standard deviations on pt 12 and pt 31 were around 0.01 and the distances 12-31 and 31-48 are similar. No way this should produce an uncertainty of 0.3 at 48 unless all the angles have gross uncertainty and the other points are being positioned mostly by GPS or good control coordinates.
Here are the results of processing with GPS only. These were mostly RTK, with a handful of very short (5-minute-ish) static sessions, and I used a scalar of 1.5 for the standard errors:
[PRE]
Network Adjustment with Error Propagation
Loading Network Data ...
Checking Network Data ...
Performing Network Adjustment ...
Iteration # 1
Iteration # 2
Solution Has Converged in 2 Iterations
Statistical Summary
Observation Count Error Factor
GPS Deltas 69 0.845
Total 69 0.845
Chi-Square Test at 5.00% Level Passed
Lower/Upper Bounds (0.800/1.199)
Performing Error Propagation ...
Writing Output Files ...
Network Processing Completed
Elapsed Time = 00:00:00
[/PRE]
[PRE]
Adjusted GPS Vector Observations (FeetUS)
From Component Adj Value Residual StdErr StdRes
To
(V1 Day046 19:41 8250-098.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3607.4865 0.0103 0.0268 0.4
1 Delta-E -854.2001 0.0053 0.0164 0.3
Delta-U -57.7688 -0.0186 0.1066 0.2
Length 3707.6885
(V2 Day164 16:38 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 0.0115 0.0450 0.3
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 0.0239 0.0221 1.1
Delta-U -56.0780 0.0087 0.0274 0.3
Length 4221.3821
(V3 Day164 16:54 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4137.6751 -0.0373 0.0315 1.2
12 Delta-E -1228.9715 0.0129 0.0279 0.5
Delta-U -59.2133 -0.0118 0.0506 0.2
Length 4316.7386
(V4 Day164 17:02 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4127.4463 0.0314 0.0447 0.7
13 Delta-E -786.7989 -0.0402 0.0393 1.0
Delta-U -58.7683 -0.0651 0.0716 0.9
Length 4202.1803
(V6 Day164 17:30 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3694.9279 0.0011 0.0182 0.1
15 Delta-E -888.7314 0.0142 0.0150 0.9
Delta-U -57.6780 0.0139 0.0586 0.2
Length 3800.7450
(V7 Day164 17:34 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3581.0555 0.0084 0.0238 0.4
16 Delta-E -761.5759 0.0006 0.0171 0.0
Delta-U -57.4742 0.0220 0.0497 0.4
Length 3661.5925
(V8 Day164 17:44 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3581.0555 -0.0064 0.0151 0.4
16 Delta-E -761.5759 0.0020 0.0115 0.2
Delta-U -57.4742 -0.0116 0.0364 0.3
Length 3661.5925
(V9 Day164 17:50 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3607.4865 -0.0055 0.0210 0.3
1 Delta-E -854.2001 -0.0021 0.0159 0.1
Delta-U -57.7688 0.0318 0.0635 0.5
Length 3707.6885
(V10 Day164 17:59 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4127.4463 -0.0306 0.0239 1.3
13 Delta-E -786.7989 0.0258 0.0198 1.3
Delta-U -58.7683 0.0122 0.0543 0.2
Length 4202.1803
(V11 Day164 18:06 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4137.6751 0.0176 0.0243 0.7
12 Delta-E -1228.9715 0.0165 0.0254 0.7
Delta-U -59.2133 0.0873 0.0420 2.1
Length 4316.7386
(V12 Day164 18:12 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 0.0455 0.0306 1.5
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 0.0079 0.0224 0.4
Delta-U -56.0780 -0.0419 0.0558 0.8
Length 4221.3821
(V13 Day164 18:19 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4095.2721 -0.0000 0.0262 0.0
34 Delta-E -1221.4565 -0.0000 0.0218 0.0
Delta-U -58.6633 -0.0000 0.0412 0.0
Length 4273.9502
(V17 PostProcessed 13-JUN-2017 16:30:17.0 4841-001.asc)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 0.0086 0.0213 0.4
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 -0.0093 0.0172 0.5
Delta-U -56.0780 -0.0724 0.0386 1.9
Length 4221.3821
(V18 PostProcessed 13-JUN-2017 16:48:54.0 4841-001.asc)
UCD1 Delta-N 4137.6751 0.0119 0.0139 0.9
12 Delta-E -1228.9715 -0.0104 0.0114 0.9
Delta-U -59.2133 -0.0335 0.0218 1.5
Length 4316.7386
(V20 Day165 16:07 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3607.4865 0.0012 0.0358 0.0
1 Delta-E -854.2001 -0.0037 0.0255 0.1
Delta-U -57.7688 -0.0173 0.0522 0.3
Length 3707.6885
(V21 Day165 16:12 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3581.0555 0.0033 0.0162 0.2
16 Delta-E -761.5759 -0.0023 0.0134 0.2
Delta-U -57.4742 0.0000 0.0371 0.0
Length 3661.5925
(V22 Day165 16:31 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3694.9279 0.0018 0.0506 0.0
15 Delta-E -888.7314 0.0189 0.0502 0.4
Delta-U -57.6780 0.0156 0.1270 0.1
Length 3800.7450
(V23 Day165 16:43 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4127.4463 0.0338 0.0310 1.1
13 Delta-E -786.7989 -0.0259 0.0265 1.0
Delta-U -58.7683 0.0245 0.0533 0.5
Length 4202.1803
(V24 Day165 16:53 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4137.6751 -0.0287 0.0297 1.0
12 Delta-E -1228.9715 0.0120 0.0294 0.4
Delta-U -59.2133 0.0195 0.0373 0.5
Length 4316.7386
(V25 Day165 17:05 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 -0.0372 0.0529 0.7
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 -0.0125 0.0295 0.4
Delta-U -56.0780 0.0303 0.0340 0.9
Length 4221.3821
(V26 Day165 17:12 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 -0.0179 0.0498 0.4
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 -0.0111 0.0380 0.3
Delta-U -56.0780 0.0445 0.0459 1.0
Length 4221.3821
(V30 PostProcessed 14-JUN-2017 17:06:41.0 4841-001.asc)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 -0.0035 0.0206 0.2
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 -0.0128 0.0143 0.9
Delta-U -56.0780 0.0070 0.0270 0.3
Length 4221.3821
(V31 PostProcessed 14-JUN-2017 16:13:57.0 4841-001.asc)
UCD1 Delta-N 3694.9279 0.0038 0.0136 0.3
15 Delta-E -888.7314 -0.0123 0.0127 1.0
Delta-U -57.6780 -0.0148 0.0307 0.5
Length 3800.7450
[/PRE]
Jim Frame, post: 432805, member: 10 wrote: Here are the results of processing with GPS only. These were mostly RTK, with a handful of very short (5-minute-ish) static sessions, and I used a scalar of 1.5 for the standard errors:
[PRE]
Network Adjustment with Error PropagationLoading Network Data ...
Checking Network Data ...Performing Network Adjustment ...
Iteration # 1
Iteration # 2
Solution Has Converged in 2 IterationsStatistical Summary
Observation Count Error Factor
GPS Deltas 69 0.845
Total 69 0.845Chi-Square Test at 5.00% Level Passed
Lower/Upper Bounds (0.800/1.199)Performing Error Propagation ...
Writing Output Files ...Network Processing Completed
Elapsed Time = 00:00:00
[/PRE][PRE]
Adjusted GPS Vector Observations (FeetUS)From Component Adj Value Residual StdErr StdRes
To
(V1 Day046 19:41 8250-098.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3607.4865 0.0103 0.0268 0.4
1 Delta-E -854.2001 0.0053 0.0164 0.3
Delta-U -57.7688 -0.0186 0.1066 0.2
Length 3707.6885
(V2 Day164 16:38 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 0.0115 0.0450 0.3
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 0.0239 0.0221 1.1
Delta-U -56.0780 0.0087 0.0274 0.3
Length 4221.3821
(V3 Day164 16:54 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4137.6751 -0.0373 0.0315 1.2
12 Delta-E -1228.9715 0.0129 0.0279 0.5
Delta-U -59.2133 -0.0118 0.0506 0.2
Length 4316.7386
(V4 Day164 17:02 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4127.4463 0.0314 0.0447 0.7
13 Delta-E -786.7989 -0.0402 0.0393 1.0
Delta-U -58.7683 -0.0651 0.0716 0.9
Length 4202.1803
(V6 Day164 17:30 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3694.9279 0.0011 0.0182 0.1
15 Delta-E -888.7314 0.0142 0.0150 0.9
Delta-U -57.6780 0.0139 0.0586 0.2
Length 3800.7450
(V7 Day164 17:34 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3581.0555 0.0084 0.0238 0.4
16 Delta-E -761.5759 0.0006 0.0171 0.0
Delta-U -57.4742 0.0220 0.0497 0.4
Length 3661.5925
(V8 Day164 17:44 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3581.0555 -0.0064 0.0151 0.4
16 Delta-E -761.5759 0.0020 0.0115 0.2
Delta-U -57.4742 -0.0116 0.0364 0.3
Length 3661.5925
(V9 Day164 17:50 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3607.4865 -0.0055 0.0210 0.3
1 Delta-E -854.2001 -0.0021 0.0159 0.1
Delta-U -57.7688 0.0318 0.0635 0.5
Length 3707.6885
(V10 Day164 17:59 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4127.4463 -0.0306 0.0239 1.3
13 Delta-E -786.7989 0.0258 0.0198 1.3
Delta-U -58.7683 0.0122 0.0543 0.2
Length 4202.1803
(V11 Day164 18:06 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4137.6751 0.0176 0.0243 0.7
12 Delta-E -1228.9715 0.0165 0.0254 0.7
Delta-U -59.2133 0.0873 0.0420 2.1
Length 4316.7386
(V12 Day164 18:12 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 0.0455 0.0306 1.5
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 0.0079 0.0224 0.4
Delta-U -56.0780 -0.0419 0.0558 0.8
Length 4221.3821
(V13 Day164 18:19 4841-001-170613.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4095.2721 -0.0000 0.0262 0.0
34 Delta-E -1221.4565 -0.0000 0.0218 0.0
Delta-U -58.6633 -0.0000 0.0412 0.0
Length 4273.9502
(V17 PostProcessed 13-JUN-2017 16:30:17.0 4841-001.asc)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 0.0086 0.0213 0.4
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 -0.0093 0.0172 0.5
Delta-U -56.0780 -0.0724 0.0386 1.9
Length 4221.3821
(V18 PostProcessed 13-JUN-2017 16:48:54.0 4841-001.asc)
UCD1 Delta-N 4137.6751 0.0119 0.0139 0.9
12 Delta-E -1228.9715 -0.0104 0.0114 0.9
Delta-U -59.2133 -0.0335 0.0218 1.5
Length 4316.7386
(V20 Day165 16:07 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3607.4865 0.0012 0.0358 0.0
1 Delta-E -854.2001 -0.0037 0.0255 0.1
Delta-U -57.7688 -0.0173 0.0522 0.3
Length 3707.6885
(V21 Day165 16:12 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3581.0555 0.0033 0.0162 0.2
16 Delta-E -761.5759 -0.0023 0.0134 0.2
Delta-U -57.4742 0.0000 0.0371 0.0
Length 3661.5925
(V22 Day165 16:31 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 3694.9279 0.0018 0.0506 0.0
15 Delta-E -888.7314 0.0189 0.0502 0.4
Delta-U -57.6780 0.0156 0.1270 0.1
Length 3800.7450
(V23 Day165 16:43 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4127.4463 0.0338 0.0310 1.1
13 Delta-E -786.7989 -0.0259 0.0265 1.0
Delta-U -58.7683 0.0245 0.0533 0.5
Length 4202.1803
(V24 Day165 16:53 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4137.6751 -0.0287 0.0297 1.0
12 Delta-E -1228.9715 0.0120 0.0294 0.4
Delta-U -59.2133 0.0195 0.0373 0.5
Length 4316.7386
(V25 Day165 17:05 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 -0.0372 0.0529 0.7
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 -0.0125 0.0295 0.4
Delta-U -56.0780 0.0303 0.0340 0.9
Length 4221.3821
(V26 Day165 17:12 4841-001-170614.ngs)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 -0.0179 0.0498 0.4
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 -0.0111 0.0380 0.3
Delta-U -56.0780 0.0445 0.0459 1.0
Length 4221.3821
(V30 PostProcessed 14-JUN-2017 17:06:41.0 4841-001.asc)
UCD1 Delta-N 4006.7360 -0.0035 0.0206 0.2
11 Delta-E -1327.7760 -0.0128 0.0143 0.9
Delta-U -56.0780 0.0070 0.0270 0.3
Length 4221.3821
(V31 PostProcessed 14-JUN-2017 16:13:57.0 4841-001.asc)
UCD1 Delta-N 3694.9279 0.0038 0.0136 0.3
15 Delta-E -888.7314 -0.0123 0.0127 1.0
Delta-U -57.6780 -0.0148 0.0307 0.5
Length 3800.7450
[/PRE]
Those vectors have no abnormal-appearing uncertainties, but Pt. 31 wasn't on the list of points connected by RTK vectors. Mark mentioned a wacky orientation. Is there a transformation involved in the adjustment that could be part of the problem?
The adjustment is run in pure SPC using the CRTN value for UCD1 (the RTN base in this case). I do have a ground conversion specified that also translates and rotates the project, but I wouldn't think that would affect the adjustment or its stats.
Jim Frame, post: 432807, member: 10 wrote: I do have a ground conversion specified that also translates and rotates the project, but I wouldn't think that would affect the adjustment or its stats.
I agree with that.
Yes, that makes sense. Just to back up a bit, were the values in the "C" lines entered for the sole purpose of adding descriptors taken from the GPS-only adjustment of the RTK vectors? What was the weighting of coordinates assigned in the Project Options? Were they (not unreasonably) assigned large standard errors so that the adjustment would run without the coordinate values as constraints?
What does StarNet do with C and PH records without either !!! or *** or standard errors?
Dave Karoly, post: 432810, member: 94 wrote: What does StarNet do with C and PH records without either !!! or *** or standard errors?
It applies the default standard error set in the Project Options tab, which Is why I asked Jim what he had it set at, suspecting that might be the culprit (along with a faulty processing algorithm).
Kent McMillan, post: 432811, member: 3 wrote: It applies the default standard error set in the Project Options tab, which Is why I asked Jim what he had it set at, suspecting that might be the culprit (along with a faulty processing algorithm).
There is a PH for 31 which is a lat long to the nearest second only which may explain it.
Dave Karoly, post: 432812, member: 94 wrote: There is a PH for 31 which is a lat long to the nearest second only which may explain it.
That is plausible. The PH line for Pt.31 should be deleted and the adjustment rerun to see if that is the problem. As a general observation, the method of using a "C" line with explicit coordinate values just to add descriptors is distinctly suboptimal. Substituting "? ? ?" for the N, E, Up values would be better practice so there is no chance of the adjustment being constrained by rough values that only appear on a line intended to add a descriptor.
Kent McMillan, post: 432811, member: 3 wrote: It applies the default standard error set in the Project Options tab,
Not according to the manual, at least for C records:
I have long assumed that PH records are treated the same way, but apparently not.
Early in the project I had to assign a rough value to 31 in order to get the adjustment to run. It's no longer needed, so I tried disabling it as well as today's observations, and that did the trick! 48 came out with an error estimate in the expected range.
I learned something today. Thanks to all who took the time to look through this.
P.S. I regularly enter RTK coordinates as unconstrained C records because I import the RTK vectors in g-file format, which doesn't provide for descriptions.
Jim Frame, post: 432819, member: 10 wrote: Not according to the manual, at least for C records:
I have long assumed that PH records are treated the same way, but apparently not.Early in the project I had to assign a rough value to 31 in order to get the adjustment to run. It's no longer needed, so I tried disabling it as well as today's observations, and that did the trick! 48 came out with an error estimate in the expected range.
I learned something today. Thanks to all who took the time to look through this.
P.S. I regularly enter RTK coordinates as unconstrained C records because I import the RTK vectors in g-file format, which doesn't provide for descriptions.
I went back and checked. You're right that I was misremembering that there is an option to specify a default standard error for coordinates entered as conditions. It's also good to know that the C lines are treated as free unless standard errors are specified after them.
I always put *** on lines with coordinates that are free. You could put *** in the point 31 PH line then it would be free and you can turn on show coordinate changes from entered provisionals.
I think the reason the PH at 31 warped the adjustment so much is that I entered a rough geoid height rather than a rough ellipsoid height.
Dave Karoly, post: 432867, member: 94 wrote: and you can turn on show coordinate changes from entered provisionals.
I leave that off by habit, since my provisionals are either very rough (to give the algorithm something to get started with) or, as mentioned above, are there solely for the purpose of assigning descriptions to RTK points.
Jim Frame, post: 432870, member: 10 wrote: I think the reason the PH at 31 warped the adjustment so much is that I entered a rough geoid height rather than a rough ellipsoid height.
I leave that off by habit, since my provisionals are either very rough (to give the algorithm something to get started with) or, as mentioned above, are there solely for the purpose of assigning descriptions to RTK points.
I enjoy seeing how good my guesses were. It's useful for seeing the differences when you have multiple OPUS solutions.
I also like seeing how close my initial Silva compass bearing is which is usually surprisingly close for an instrument that has a 2 degree least count.
I love this descriptor. 🙂
M 19-1-15 249.1424 94.043 89.4818 4.832/5.000 'FND 5/5" RB LS 6829
Kris Morgan, post: 432934, member: 29 wrote: I love this descriptor. 🙂
M 19-1-15 249.1424 94.043 89.4818 4.832/5.000 'FND 5/5" RB LS 6829
I only noticed that typo after posting the DAT file. I made a mental note to fix it, but as with so many of my mental notes, it evaporated before I got around to making the fix. Maybe when I get back to the office I'll remember (but probably not).
Hey, I remembered!:
M 19-1-15 249.1424 94.043 89.4818 4.832/5.000 'FND 5/8" RB LS 6829
