joabmc, post: 335453, member: 10395 wrote: Here's something I've done on several projects. Of course it's all dependent on site conditions. Establish and extend your long lines and use the "L" method as you mentioned. If able, have the contractor take a few scoops out with an excavator at the "L" points and pour concrete pads for you. There is always extra concrete and they can use it to make you 3 "permanent" monument pads. While it's still wet, you can drop some rebar at desired locations and place caps on them. Or let it setup, mark and drill. Having 4 is perfect but 3 will will always give you a way out in case of an emergency. I'd try to talk them into going every other column line on the short leg and every other on the long as well. We use hubs and tacks if ground permits. There have been times depending on the site where we have drilled column references and also used mag nails when there is macadam. Laying out every other keeps everyone working together and back checking each other. It's pretty easy for them to set intermediates on-line and it gives them the opportunity to tie between lines.
Thanks joabmc, I've read and heard about setting permanents in concrete... I'll look into it. The intermediate stations sounds like a great idea, thanks....closest I've got to that is a job we did along the Arizona-Mexico border for the border patrol. That ground is rocky, I brought mortar and water, humped buckets up hills, dug down as best as we could, built mounds and set the monuments in the mortared mounds. Thanks again, I'll keep you posted as to how it works out. Paul
joabmc, post: 335453, member: 10395 wrote: Here's something I've done on several projects. Of course it's all dependent on site conditions. Establish and extend your long lines and use the "L" method as you mentioned. If able, have the contractor take a few scoops out with an excavator at the "L" points and pour concrete pads for you. There is always extra concrete and they can use it to make you 3 "permanent" monument pads. While it's still wet, you can drop some rebar at desired locations and place caps on them. Or let it setup, mark and drill. Having 4 is perfect but 3 will will always give you a way out in case of an emergency. I'd try to talk them into going every other column line on the short leg and every other on the long as well. We use hubs and tacks if ground permits. There have been times depending on the site where we have drilled column references and also used mag nails when there is macadam. Laying out every other keeps everyone working together and back checking each other. It's pretty easy for them to set intermediates on-line and it gives them the opportunity to tie between lines.
Thanks joabmc, I've read and heard about setting permanents like that, closest I've done to that is a job for the border patrol staking camera sites along the US-Mexico border. Some parts are mostly small volcanic mountains, hills and mounds....ground is all volcanic rocks. We brought mortar and water, built mounds and cemented the boundary markers in. Turned out pretty good....Thanks for your advice....I like the idea of setting every other line. Thanks Again, Paul
James Fleming, post: 335416, member: 136 wrote: BIM to field.
http://www.trimble.com/construction/building-construction/trimblefieldlink-structures.aspx
http://mep.trimble.com/products/field-solutions/trimble-field-link-for-mep
https://www.topconpositioning.com/content/construction-layout
http://www.autodesk.com/products/bim-360-glue/features
Most large general contractors around here either currently have, or are starting up, virtual construction departments that stake out directly from a BIM construction model that they built in-house. Being able to set up anywhere on the building site, resection, and stake directly from the current, cloud based, BIM model is the way I think all large building construction will be performed within the next ten years.
To tie this in to the "lack of surveyors" thread, a large general contractor just hired the office guy who ran all my scanning projects and will be sitting for his license in the spring. I pay my guys well, but I'm never going to be able to compete on salary alone when a big GC decides to dump a truckload of money (and all the high tech toys he wants) on a guy.
Hello James, Thanks....you know I've seen the acronym around for awhile and briefly read about it. Its like what Mark said about getting hit in the face....until it starts to affect you....Thanks for the info, Paul
For those interested, here is what they usually give us...Thanks Again for your input
rlshound, post: 333489, member: 6800 wrote: Hello,
We just got a 1800 x 1000 foot building and am reviewing the architects plans. We've been working with the same general contractor for awhile, the work is always under pressure and the job sites are crowded, what else is new. The subs usually destroy our stakes and we get recalled, we've done our do diligence to keep this from happening. The grid lines are spaced at 30 feet along the long leg and 30 and 15 along the shorter leg. Can anyone recommend a good way to layout the grid lines...offsets....types of stakes used....anything that you do that someone else may not...your advice would be appreciated. Thank You, Paul
Are you using the term "grid line" as others might use the term "column line"?
"Grid line" is the familiar term to me. The A,B,C, 1,2,3 rectangular grid common on commercial building plans, such as shown on rlshound's staking plan. Are you thinking of something else?
James Fleming, post: 335416, member: 136 wrote: BIM to field.
http://www.trimble.com/construction/building-construction/trimblefieldlink-structures.aspx
http://mep.trimble.com/products/field-solutions/trimble-field-link-for-mep
https://www.topconpositioning.com/content/construction-layout
http://www.autodesk.com/products/bim-360-glue/features
Most large general contractors around here either currently have, or are starting up, virtual construction departments that stake out directly from a BIM construction model that they built in-house. Being able to set up anywhere on the building site, resection, and stake directly from the current, cloud based, BIM model is the way I think all large building construction will be performed within the next ten years.
To tie this in to the "lack of surveyors" thread, a large general contractor just hired the office guy who ran all my scanning projects and will be sitting for his license in the spring. I pay my guys well, but I'm never going to be able to compete on salary alone when a big GC decides to dump a truckload of money (and all the high tech toys he wants) on a guy.
That is some technology! Now you don't even have to worry about line of sight between the prism and the total station!!
You have to wonder what these companies are thinking when they approve pictures like these on their website.
"Larry, jam some of those bolts over there into the ground and pretend like your measuring dimensions....don't forget that to wear your new hard hat.."
Are you using the term "grid line" as others might use the term "column line"?
"Column line" or "Building line" is the familiar term to me. I struggled at the beginning of this thread to figure out exactly what he meant by "grid line"
MD Surveyor, post: 336314, member: 10081 wrote: "Column line" or "Building line" is the familiar term to me. I struggled at the beginning of this thread to figure out exactly what he meant by "grid line"
Fair enough. Now I'm wondering what Mike thought was meant by "grid line".
Mike Falk, post: 335456, member: 442 wrote: I wouldn't expect them to change it to suit a surveyor. I would expect them to change it to be more efficient and more profitable.
We are in business to help our clients be profitable, aren't we?
No - we are in business to be profitable OURSELVES. I think this is probably sentence #1 in Business 101...
imaudigger, post: 336311, member: 7286 wrote:
That is some technology! Now you don't even have to worry about line of sight between the prism and the total station!!
Not only that but if I was plumbing with one hand and operating the dc with the other probably both would be poorly done.
Nevertheless I'd have plenty of time to practice while the gun is pointed 30å¡ to my left.
Jim in AZ, post: 336317, member: 249 wrote: No - we are in business to be profitable OURSELVES. I think this is probably sentence #1 in Business 101...
If all you do is worry about your own profitability, you will lose plenty of clients.
Mike Falk, post: 336328, member: 442 wrote: If all you do is worry about your own profitability, you will lose plenty of clients.
I agree Mike. Take care of your clients and they will take care of you.
I am reminded of some t-shirts I saw employees in Costco wearing, once. They said "safety isn't job 1, it's the only job". Which struck me as absurd, because, if true, they would have to close the store and dispense with all the hazardous stock and customers.
Are you setting it up for another on-site surveyor, or are you going to be THE surveyor for the job? This is all very basic stuff but I'll explain my thoughts anyway.
I work as a surveyor for a construction company that builds large buildings and the only thing we hire a geomatics company for is to initially place the building and then to set up the control I will be using for the rest of the project. Once that first control is set I can easily add new points as construction progresses and blocks line of sight to old control. I do all my layout radially off those control points. It is all local coordinates, I usually just pick a grid intersection in the south-west corner of the project and give it an arbitrary coordinate, maybe N - 5000.000 E - 1000.000. Elevation is usually dictated on the plans as main floor = 100.000
I have found that my nails will be wiped out unless they are using them the same day or the next day, if you hound them they might be able to avoid it a bit longer but i will still occasionally happen. The main thing is to make sure you know what needs to be done, when it will be done, and how it might be done, so you know what you actually can layout without it being wiped out. Ask lots of questions and have a chat with every crew. If you are new or don't know the construction process it can be very hard to tell if your stakes will be able to be saved for long enough to use them.
The first thing is layout for basic dirt work to get ready for pile drilling. You need to ask the dirt guys what they want because every crew seems to do it drastically different. Usually just a few nails on some some grid lines that they can measure off of, and a few benchmarks they can set their lasers to is all they need.
Piles:
Next is layout out for pile locations, I just give them one center point nail and a known elevation near by. The pile drillers will then set their own offsets as they work, and use a builders level off a benchmarks to get the right pile height. Sometimes I will print them out a pile schedule if they don't want to read the plans and label each nail according to the pile schedule. Your nails my shift a bit with the heavy machinery but piles have pretty slack accuracy requirements usually anyway. Piles are usually spaced out enough that they can avoid your nails so any area where the dirt is prepped you should be able to lay out.
Pile Caps:
After piles comes the pile caps and footings, they should be able to dig out the piles and area for the caps accurately enough without layout just based on concrete pile location and an elevation benchmark. You are usually left with knee to waist deep squares dug out around the piles. If you can set up high enough and can see into the bottom of the holes then I usually just layout nails directly on the pile cap corners and the carpenters can set their form corners directly on top of them. If it is really wet, muddy, or you cant get a shot into the holes, then I layout pile cap center lines with nails on the bank of the dirt, or get the carpenters to set up batter boards on the bank that I can mark cap center lines on. They then can just string line from center line to center line and measure off of that to set their forms.
They will need a nearby benchmark to mark pour height for the rod busters to do rebar once they get two sides of the forms nailed down. Once the rebar is in they will close up the form-work and secure it. This is when you need to mark the centerlines of walls and and pilasters on the edges of the secured form-work so the rodbusters can set the dowels for those things. This is also when i double check the pour heights and location to make sure the carpenters didn't screw up, or nothing shifted for than tolerance.
Footings are done the same way, but often they can just go from pilecap to pilecap
Foundation Walls:
Finally! Something stable to mark. This is when you need to be accurate, but now it is easy because you can just chalk line the walls and pilasters directly on the concrete. Shoot in one side of each wall, chalk it, measure off wall width, chalk the other side.
Chalk the center lines of pilasters, measure off those to chalk the outsides. Easy.
The carpenters then set their panels directly to those lines. They plumb it all themselves, get one side set up, you then chalk-line an elevation on the open formwork that all the other trades can measure off of to set sleeves, holes, openings, ect. and the top of the wall. Sometimes they also want you to set a vertical grid line going up the formwork if there is stuff that needs to be very accurate but usually they can just measure off of wall corners and pilasters for that stuff.
let the rodbusters do the rebar, they then close up and secure the wall, build the scaffolding at the top of the wall, then I can go up there and shoot centerlines for anchor bolts while double checking to make sure the top of the wall is in the same location as the bottom of the wall and the pour height is right.
Anchor bolts:
Once the wall forms are all set and closed you mark the center-lines of the anchor bolt templates on the top of the wall, so the carpenters can create the bracing and set the template in the right location. This step can be skipped with some experienced carpenter crews if they will just measure off of wall edges and pilasters, but that requires them to be able and willing to read the structural, and anchor bolt shop drawings.
They should set it up in a way so they can move it around in the bracing ~10mm in any direction (or however far they think they might be off). Then you come back and shoot the template with them, they move it to where you say, they nail it down and secure it, you shoot it again to make sure it is mm accurate.
I am going to end this here. I have already droned on for too long and I am not even sure if this is actually what you need
I realized now that, that is not at all what you were asking for. Basically I just work with the surveyors to set control wherever I think it might last. Sometimes on the sidewalk across the street, sometimes on a nearby building. All I need is enough that I can set my own new ones when they inevitably get wiped out, and enough that I can periodically check to make sure they have not moved. I have never set anything in concrete though, that seems like overkill.
