I decided to give the RE a ring regarding the tagged markers I found on the last survey I did in Pasadena.
I told him that whoever is out running the crew and setting his tags is endangering him with thier survey procedures. I also let him know that if the board got hold of this that he would most likely be brought up on charges of negligence and incompetency at the very least.
He was VERY grateful that I called him.
I told him that my RS was already submitted into the county for review and if he sends me an email I would be more than happy to email him a PDF of the survey.
He called back later and told me that his PC would call me. I let him know that I was not interested in hearing some chief justify bad work and that I would rather just keep the communication up between he and I. He understood where I was coming from and told me he was out of country at the present and did not have access to the job file. I said that the whole thing can wait until he gets back in town.
He said he will try and get hold of a terminal and email me so he can take a look at the PDF. He just thanked me over and over.
The problem with supervising non licensed people is that we have to take thier word for it as far as how a job went and all that. Unless the supervising individual is 'hands on and in the field' they are pretty much at the mercy of thier crews word and work...be it good or bad.
There definitely has to be a level of trust involved. At the company I work for, I am limited to working in the office because of our union contract for field work, but it doesn't stop me from going out there. I've been here 4 1/2 years and have that level of comfort with all the chiefs and a couple of the chainmen too, so I consider myself lucky in that respect. Two of our chiefs are also licensed and a third is not far from his LS (he's ready, but hasn't sat for the exam).
> At the company I work for, I am limited to working in the office because of our union contract for field work...
Things must have changed since I was union. I did not realize that an LS has to be a union member to do field work. When I received my LS the union sent me a cert PC card by virtue of the LS and told me I was exempt from the remaining courses of the union school. Then they wanted me to send them $ 90 for a withdrawl from the union, I refused, so they kicked me out of the union. The reason they gave was : "I did not complete the union school"...Go figure!
Aren't professionals exempt from Union wages as well?
> > At the company I work for, I am limited to working in the office because of our union contract for field work...
>
> Things must have changed since I was union. I did not realize that an LS has to be a union member to do field work. When I received my LS the union sent me a cert PC card by virtue of the LS and told me I was exempt from the remaining courses of the union school. Then they wanted me to send them $ 90 for a withdrawl from the union, I refused, so they kicked me out of the union. The reason they gave was : "I did not complete the union school"...Go figure!
I'm not a member of the union, so that is what precludes me. I know the LS make them an LS PC, which is a $1 per hour over Certified PC, or something like that. If your company is a signee then all your field work should be performed by union members.
As long as the union has such a strangle hold on an LS, were never going to be considered 'professionals', just para professionals.
> The problem with supervising non licensed people is that we have to take thier word for it as far as how a job went and all that. Unless the supervising individual is 'hands on and in the field' they are pretty much at the mercy of thier crews word and work...be it good or bad.
Just Tuesday I was looking at some stuff our crew brought in and thought it would be nice to have found a couple more things, so I went out to the site and started sniffing around. Well, I found one pretty important monument they missed right on the corner of the property we are surveying. Glad I didn't calc something that might have resulted in a pin cusion. :pissed:
If you're going to deal with an issue like this with another surveyor (or engineer in this case), you would hope that they would respond as this one did.
Let's see now if he follows up so far as to reset the monumentation properly, or redo his RS.
Leave the teckies in the office.
The surveyor should be in the field !
Derek
It is so good to be
Solo
Ryan
Last company I worked for in CA, I was my own party chief and the other PLS who worked there was his own party chief. We actually shared a full time instrumentman who was studying for the LSIT and had a couple of the office help we used in the field as needed.
We were pretty darned efficient. No union rules to deal with.
You should tell your crew when they go back for a final monumentation when they lay out your calc'd corners to run a schonstedt in a 5-10ft radius of your calc just to make sure they dont pincusion, thats what we do and usually it doesnt produce a monument but it has a few times.
It is so good to be
Amen. I work with several folks these days, and hate to say it, but the registered guys in the field (not a one of them under 60) tend to slow things down. I would rather have at least one trip to the job solo and then come back with the pros to look for additional evidence if warranted.
Before I set a capped rebar, I ALWAYS sweep and probe again. Several folks back in the day set concrete monuments with no metal in them, and sometimes will find something that would not show up if I didn't probe some more. I make it easier on the next guy by wrapping them with tie wire so they will register with a metal detector.
If a surveyor wants to stamp work that he has not done personally, and by that I mean research, calcs and field work, that is the surveyors prerogative. But they also accept the liability if things go south in a law suit because the survey was not done correctly.
Personally, if I'm not there when the work is done my stamp isn't going on it. Just old fashioned I guess.
Jim
It is so good to be
I'm glad the registered folks are out there slowing things down; they should do that.
There seems to be a culture of hurry up in our profession. I have never gotten in trouble because I went too slow. We seem to be in a big rush to measure everything then make a decision (fast) then slam some iron into the ground. We had a case presented by our PPC which involves a difference of opinion between two Surveyors. Both opinions are competently arrived at but the two property owners involved now have two sets of monuments when the problem should have been resolved first then monumented later. But we approach these problems with a contractor mentality; I have to finish the job and slam some iron into the ground. This is not always best for the actual clients.
Dave
I'll second that. The old saying goes Don't be a victum of the question Why is it here's never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over?
I've found too many corners the second or third visit to the site to go re-establishing a lost corner without a lot of searching and analysis of the existing evidence.
DJJ
Dave
> We had a case presented by our PPC which involves a difference of opinion between two Surveyors. Both opinions are competently arrived at but the two property owners involved now have two sets of monuments when the problem should have been resolved first then monumented later.
Is there a link to view those surveys Dave?
Dave
They did a presentation which changed enough of the details to keep it confidential (the names have been changed to protect the innocent). I happen to know both the Surveyors and the R/S references but they aren't on-line. There is a thread on the CLSA forum about it but last I looked it wasn't generating too much interest.
The PPC is asking us to keep this confidential.
It essentially involves a block in a 1905 subdivision. There is no original evidence left in fact there may never have been any. The exact details are not really that important. The real question in my mind is what do you do if there are two Surveyors with a legitimate difference of opinion on how to establish one line of a block. Do you each monument your opinion and walk away or is there a better way?
Keep in mind those old subdivisions where often platted and the lots sold to be built out over a period of years. Things got built in an ad-hoc way such that you get conflicts depending on what you hold. There are a lot of blocks in East Sacramento that are made up of multiple subdivisions so it's not really proper to just proportion the block. This is not an easy engineering problem but engineers and a lot of surveyors seem to treat them that way. This is a people problem; not a technical problem.
Dave
> .. The real question in my mind is what do you do if there are two Surveyors with a legitimate difference of opinion on how to establish one line of a block.
I have often expressed my thoughts on situations like this. If there are multiple ways to establish a line then it is time to abandon all of them and use occupation.
