aliquot, post: 425433, member: 2486 wrote: Nothing compels a land surveyor to do any work, but why would you not want more proffesional oppurtunites? In the communities I have the most experience on I can't think of any one else besides a land surveyor and the local governmet itself who could provide that service.
i wasn't advocating kicking the job down the road, only the responsibility for making a definite statement as to the nature of the setback(s).
JB, post: 425458, member: 346 wrote: Let your local planning department make the call and have them put it in writing. Show their decision on the plat and reference the letter.
A misrepresentation on zoning, even by mistake, will teach you why Surveyors should stay out of the business of determining zoning issues.
It comes down to the fact that zoning issues are malleable and as such cannot be a statement of fact. It's an opinion. Facts are what we should deal in.
We also review fact patterns and issue opinions. If you have the education and experience to make the call do it. Talk it through with the planner and advocate for your client. It's done every day without ill effect.
thebionicman, post: 425468, member: 8136 wrote: We also review fact patterns and issue opinions. If you have the education and experience to make the call do it. Talk it through with the planner and advocate for your client. It's done every day without ill effect.
We do NOT advocate. We present evidence.
JB, post: 425470, member: 346 wrote: We do NOT advocate. We present evidence.
I can see the ad now. Need a side lot line changed to a rear lot line? Then call me the Lot Line Surveyor I will advocate for your lot lines. Evidence not needed.
JB, post: 425470, member: 346 wrote: We do NOT advocate. We present evidence.
If the subject at hand were boundaries I would agree wholeheartedly. Applying that platitude in this case is disingenuous at best.
If my client is going before a Council or Commission I absolutely advocate for them. In the context of the thread it's not only acceptable it's my job.
thebionicman, post: 425483, member: 8136 wrote: If the subject at hand were boundaries I would agree wholeheartedly. Applying that platitude in this case is disingenuous at best.
If my client is going before a Council or Commission I absolutely advocate for them. In the context of the thread it's not only acceptable it's my job.
It's a fine line for me. I have dealt with several clients appealing to the city council for several different kinds of variances and permits. One function is an obligatory session of Q&A in front of council. I can think of a couple of instances where there were some glaring reasons the client's request for a variance might fail. I have had to explain to several clients they have my entire professional support to provide council with pertinent data, but I cannot prevaricate or mislead anyone. My only desire is to present the data as concisely as I can. Whether or not they are successful in their endeavors is secondary to my desire and responsibility to present the facts. Simply put, if someone asks me a question I will answer it honestly.
Here's another way to consider the issue:
Let's say you make a zoning determination for your client and, as an advocate for your client, you make a call that suits their needs.
Now things go sideways.
How do you want to open the discussion when you get the call from their Attorney.
Pick one:
1) I read the section of the zoning manual regarding setbacks and showed them on the plat based on my interpretation of the manual.
2) I have scanned and emailed to your office a copy of a letter dated 4/25/17 and signed by D.J. Opinion, from the Shucks County Planning Department, stating the opinion of the zoning department. These are the setbacks shown and the letter referenced on my plat.
Dug this up too, by Gary Kent.
JB, post: 425486, member: 346 wrote: Here's another way to consider the issue:
Let's say you make a zoning determination for your client and, as an advocate for your client, you make a call that suits their needs.
Now things go sideways.
How do you want to open the discussion when you get the call from their Attorney.
Pick one:
1) I read the section of the zoning manual regarding setbacks and showed them on the plat based on my interpretation of the manual.2) I have scanned and emailed to your office a copy of a letter dated 4/25/17 and signed by D.J. Opinion, from the Shucks County Planning Department, stating the opinion of the zoning department. These are the setbacks shown and the letter referenced on my plat.
I'm betting we are closer than you think.
If the ordinance is ambiguous I build my case and take it to the planner. If there isnt sign off I inform my client of his options. If they contract for it I do to P&Z and Council and argue the case. I have a very good track record because I only perform this service when the proposed interpretation is reasonable. Its good money and actually a lot of fun.
i don't know how it works where any of y'all are situated particularly, but having spent the last couple decades thick in the land development side of things, i can attest to how it is here- which is to say that a vast majority of the time the CCRs written for any specific subdivision are going to be an exercise like follows:
surveyor (me): "hey mr. engineer project manager: email me or give me a copy of the CCR you plan on filing on or with this plat."
project manager: "what?"
me: "restrictions. setbacks. you know what? forget it. CC me on an email with the client and their attorney, i'll figure this out myself."
email from me: "hello, mr. esquire. i'm the surveyor over here at xyz, working with mr. putz, your project manager. i need the CCR y'all want for this plat we are going to file. at this point i realize they are probably not finalized, but we need to submit to the city for review so i need to get some info on there and check for any issues."
email from mr. esquire's paralegal (a week later): "hi, mr. esquire asked that i forward this document to you in regard to your surveying. could you tell us when you'll have a completed document so we can commence building houses?"
review the document sent to me, it's the CCR for the previous 5 phases of this development, or else an entirely different subdivision in an entirely different jurisdiction that just happens to be the last deal they worked on.
at which point i go to the project manager, attorney, client and point out any glaring absurdity. at which point they all say "we'll figure that out later. we have a submittal deadline that's more important."
stupid plat and CCR goes to planners for review. planners come back with comments. such as "please list the northings, eastings, and NAVD88 elevations for the roof ridgelines for every proposed structure in subdivision."
me: "well, ok. now can you guys do something about these setbacks that aren't going to make sense in this particular phase of this subdivision due to...?"
PM/lawyer: "we ain't got time for that sh*t, you need to address those ridgeline coordinate comments so we can get to building!"
6 months later a plat is approved by city council and filed for public record at the county clerk's (6 miles away) within the 4 subsequent minutes.
and we are left with a situation like the above.
which is why i will not opine professionally in these situations. i am not clairvoyant, i am also not qualified to make that call. and though my ego sometimes tugs at me to liberate all these fools from their cavalier and myopic ways- i too well know that one of them will eventually, with authority, disagree with me and deliver a headache upon mine skull for which probably only alcohol has a decent shot of remedying.
and, in my experience, zoning setbacks are at least as dicey. they're painted with an awfully broad brush just about all the time, with all corresponding consideration taken for individual cases.
thebionicman, post: 425490, member: 8136 wrote: I'm betting we are closer than you think.
If the ordinance is ambiguous I build my case and take it to the planner. If there isnt sign off I inform my client of his options. If they contract for it I do to P&Z and Council and argue the case. I have a very good track record because I only perform this service when the proposed interpretation is reasonable. Its good money and actually a lot of fun.
:clink:
I'm with JB. I had a similar situation which was determined to be two side-lines by one town official before construction, only to have it kicked back by a different person after construction, saying that it was two rear-lines.
If they can't agree, what standing do I have to make the call?
arctan(x), post: 425391, member: 6795 wrote: would you say that the rear line is continuous along with the rest of the south lines of the lots in the same block?
Yes, the rear lot line is the 155.22, S76W line.
JPH, post: 425520, member: 6636 wrote: I'm with JB. I had a similar situation which was determined to be two side-lines by one town official before construction, only to have it kicked back by a different person after construction, saying that it was two rear-lines.
If they can't agree, what standing do I have to make the call?
Here is my point precisely.
If that first opinion were in writing, even if it were incorrect, you'd be in the clear. Furthermore, the client will have a STRONG case to bring to a board of adjustment if need be.
THIS is serving your client!