The following was reported on the Engineering News Record site.
"Despite Accidents, Pipeline Info Is Elusive
09/20/2010
Associated Press/AP Online
By GARANCE BURKE and MATTHEW BROWN"
"SAN FRANCISCO - Public records can reveal a lot about a neighborhood: who's not paying their taxes, where sex offenders live, whether a house for sale has lead paint. Yet if a 2 1/2-foot-wide pipeline carrying highly pressurized, explosive natural gas runs beneath the neighborhood, it's a different story."
"Citing fears that terrorists might try to blow up the nation's natural gas pipelines, federal regulators and the industry have made it extremely difficult for homeowners to learn the location of pipelines and any history of inspections and repairs - information that safety advocates say could save lives."
Link to full article:
http://enr.construction.com/yb/enr/article.aspx?story_id=150051008
I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around the question, first off have I missed the fact that pipeline markers have been removed from rights of ways?
Or is true as I always suspected that the need for a homeowner to make a "One Call" before digging up the roses is that utilities are sneaking around in the dark of night burying pipelines under people's houses?
From another side of the question, "How much G.I.S. data has already been sent to other countries in the name of "Outsourcing"?
Paul in PA
The information is there, it is just like the article stated: it is elusive b/c of the national security issues for these interstate lines.
I do agree that we should not make it easy for this information to be found.
All the p/l companies have the information in some sort of database system like GIS.
All p/l have to be marked. Now it will not tell you if you have a 4" f/l or a 42" HP gas line, but it is marked.
In most cases these lines were laid well before the houses showed up. These homes were built knowing that there was major gas line in place.
People think the p/l company can just relocate the line. They do not understand the amount of engineering and permitting that goes into doing a re-route. In most cases they cannot do it b/c of new enviro regulations in place will not allow it. And yes the cost to do the job could be to high.
But the information is there, just need to know were to look (plus is also helps to be in the industry).
There is some developer shakin' in his boots over this one. The pipeline was there before the housing development, and so was the easement, either through writing of prescription. The only thing the pipeline company did wrong was not (and I'm assuming they haven't or didn't) FORCE them out of their easement.
In Texas, the RRC has ALL pipelines (flowlines to common carrier lines) for all the public to see in the GIS viewer online. This is for the one call for everyone to be on the same page. I'm surprised that Cali doesn't have something like this.
As far as your original question is, they are known in Texas. Cali is just strange.
Couldn't that info be discerned by looking at utility easements and ROWS?
Perhaps they wouldn't indicate the type of utility but I think it is reasonable to assume that a sanitary or storm sewer is not going to cut the swath that a national transmission line would.
If I see a 100' or bigger ROW going through a property and there are no overhead high tension lines I'd say it is safe to say it's either natural gas or some sort of liquid petroleum product.
Eric
Not necessarily. Tarrant County Water Improvement District has a 100' ROW with twin 72" water lines flowing water out from Lake Cedar Creek to Tarrant County.
I'll agree, the miles and miles of 100' shooting lane should tip someone off pretty quick about something not being kosher.
Well Kris
I would consider 2 72" water mains feeding a major metro area something of a substantial potential target by those who would do harm to the populace. I'd say one could do more harm by messing up the water supply than blowing a big whole in the ground.
Eric
As I mentioned above, those lines (ALL pipelines from gas to water (other than muni lines) show up on the RRC.
I don't disagree with you, but they either haven't figured it out yet, or figured out the impact wouldn't be as great as most think.
Most massive lines go to a collection point with other massive lines coming in. Probably wouldn't disrupt much.
Occasionally, and I live and work in the oil patch, there are lines that blow out. However, years ago, lines in Urban areas were classified by the RRC as DOT lines and are marked very well and information packets sent out to landowners that could be affected by it.
However, the coolest lines I work on (if you can call it that) are H2S lines where the predicted amount of gas, with the applicable PPB are known, and then that designates the "KILL ZONE" for a leak. Normally, it's like 1/4 mile for new lines. Although, those nasty gas lines are right next to schools in Midland and Odessa. Sulfur and rotten eggs and lots of training and paying attention are requisite for working in H2S fields. Leaks under the ground will KILL the men locating it and mapping it. There is no escape when it overcomes you, especially if the concentration is 5% or higher.
Dangerous stuff.
Eric
Ah heck, I use H2S to clear my sinuses in the morning.
And hesh up about the RRC GIS map. They're gonna take my handy info away if you keep talking about it.
Yes. All underground utilities should be required to provide good location maps to the governing agency for public access and copy's provided at no charge from that agency to the public. They need to be dated and upgraded every two years even if the only change is the date of the upgrade. I don't care who collects the data, as long as it good data.
jud
Eric
> Ah heck, I use H2S to clear my sinuses in the morning.
>
> And hesh up about the RRC GIS map. They're gonna take my handy info away if you keep talking about it.
I knew I'd hit a nerve with the Midland/Odessa comment. 🙂
I don't use the RRC map much, but it's handy when you need it. It's also very WRONG at times, but better than nothing.
Locations Of Gas Transmission Lines
People who are going to commit terrorist acts will find out where their targets are one way or another.
If an underground pipeline is not easily visible or accessible, they will move on to another one, if that's the type of target they want to attack.
Hiding the information from property owners, public officials and emergency responders simply makes no sense at all.
Locations Of Gas Transmission Lines
agreed. Don't take information from the hands of the people. I would rather die in a terrorist act than a construction accident, and honestly, which one is more likely?
+ hiding info is like running scared I'm not scared of these ba@#!rds.
I think it's just fear mongering anyway. How about the phone companies that won't provide plans because it's "proprietary material".... OK guys, but we're not fixing your line when it gets destroyed due to your own ignorance.
Locating utilities is like pulling teeth most of the time here.