Thanks for the comments Just A. I do believe that I have an obligation to tell them and be completely upfront. If I were in their position and found this out later I wouldn't be particularly happy if I knew that I had paid full market price. There is really nothing to hide, you're extending your liability and that is reasonable that you should be compensated. It will be a take it or leave it deal anyway
Multiple times a week I do surveys of property I have previously surveyed. Some times I do it on properties I have surveyed more than 1 time in the past. 40 to 45 years ago I may have felt a little sneaky if I didn't reveal I had already surveyed the property. Nowadays I have done it so often it doesn't bother me in the least. Try it. Do it and enjoy doing it without guilt. You'll be ok.
ubenhavin
If you are in the business of providing data to your clients then it doesn't matter how you get it, as long as it's legal, and as long as it's correct. If you are in the business of putting on a show of field work, that is a different story.
I have no problem reusing old data and charging full price for it. Naturally there will be a need to visit the site to check for changes, check your control, see if any recent boundary work has gone on in the neighborhood. But that data is yours to reuse and I just can't see any point in going through the motions again.?ÿ
One caveat - the topo work has to be relatable to some form of control in order to?ÿ be useful. If you set Mag Nails, 60d spikes, or wood hubs -all on local control - 4 years ago they may or may not still be there and the control may or may not be recoverable.?ÿ If it isn't your topo data may be useless, and then you will be obliged to go through those motions again.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
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if I buy 100k in title insurance, then I sell the property, and the next owner also buys 100k in title insurance, this second person does NOT get a price break.
This is the survey business.?ÿ Do not under any circumstances take on more responsibility for zero fee.?ÿ You have the survey, they want the survey.?ÿ?ÿ
Like a few have mentioned, you may drop the price a little to secure you obtaining the contract knowing you have 75% of the work already completed.
I have surveyed numerous lots numerous times and get paid each time.
One caveat...it goes without saying (ie where you have surveyed the property before and will mostly use the previous work product for your benefit), for surveys of this nature lump sum fees are required.
?ÿI also look at it as if?ÿ'what would it cost if they went to another Surveyor who hadn't done any work on it before?'?ÿ It would cost what the first one did.?ÿ
The realtor certainly gets the same commission if they transact the same property multiple times and the lawyer clock tics regardless.
Your work is just as valuable, and adds as much value to the client as any other surveyor who might contract to do the job. You are under no obligation to discount your value to the client. The product itself has a certain value, and certainly the product you provide is as valuable as some other surveyor who might provide the same product (assuming you do the high quality work I am confident you do).
Any discount you might consider giving should be based only on the fact that you do not want to lose the job, and if need be might come down just a bit to help ensure the job is yours.
I am tired of the days when surveyors served the Public as a copy shop freely giving away copies of their previous work. No more. Act like it's a business and you are in it to make money.?ÿ
Brother, you do you and I'll do me.?ÿ I tend to like repeat work that doesn't take?ÿany effort?ÿto get.?ÿ ?ÿ
As an outsider (geographically and profession) looking in, maybe also consider/inquire the purpose of the request for the survey/topo. We've just done a topo for 1km of rural road gravel for design of its upgrade to tarseal, so that's 8000 shots, vs 200 for the original topo.?ÿ
You cannot disclaim anything that your BOR expects from you and your license.
I can remember getting a call from a lawyer asking for a price to "update" and ALTA.?ÿ Then when I sent it, I got the response along the lines that the buyer and lender were willing to accept the prior ALTA I'd done, and I just need to sign their certification.?ÿ WTF
There is such a lack of understanding and it's pretty offensive that they don't really get that not only did they just screw me out of a few thousand dollars, but they now have the balls to assume that I'm ok with signing something that extends my liability.
Again, as pointed out by others, no one else in this transaction was doing anything for free.?ÿ And certainly weren??t taking on more responsibility for nothing.
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Why would you do that. Send a crew out. or go yourself, note the changes, draft a current survey and charge accordingly. In 18 months you could have another opportunity do it again, and charge again.?ÿ
IMO this is not a give away scenario.
On ALTA surveys I used to set up my control and files with extra care. I knew chances were better than even I would get a call to 'update' my map. My response was well reheared.
Provide me the new title report with supporting docs and let me check county records. Once that is compiled and we visit the site we can talk.
Occasionally they get a small break, but occasionally the price goes up. Like the man said, stop apologizing for making money....
Do any of you advertise?
how much money and time do you spend?
Sometimes a quick update or simple copy, for Free, goes a long long way. Depends on the client and the project, but think about it.
This is basic ethics.?ÿ It is unethical to charge Client-A $1000 for a boundary then charge the owner abutting Client-A a discounted price just because you already performed a portion of the work.?ÿ It is unethical practice to discount subsequent owners without express permission of the original client.?ÿ The original client paid for the survey (they did not necessarily pay for the data you cataloged).?ÿ It is their survey, and they and only they have the ability to resell their survey.?ÿ You need to get their permission to resell it if you are not going to revisit the site and modify the plat with all new dates, title, notes, etc..?ÿ I see no ethical problem with using the old data to create a new survey and any "update" is in fact a new survey even if the only thing that changes is the title and date.?ÿ?ÿ
I wouldn't charge a penny less than I did on the previous survey.?ÿ Please consider that you are viewing this scenario only through the eyes of the new client to whom you have no prior or present contractual attachment.?ÿ The new client may hire you, but your old client already hired and paid you.?ÿ You owe your old client more consideration than the stranger that you are now dealing with.?ÿ?ÿ
I grew up in rural Maine in a family of loggers.?ÿ It is not natural for me to assign monetary value to my knowledge.?ÿ I felt guilty the first time I charged the same price for a survey that I had done previously.?ÿ I kept thinking that I should rerun my traverse as if the fieldwork was the most valuable portion of what I do.?ÿ Fieldwork is simply data collection.?ÿ It is the disseminating of the inferences of data that is valuable.?ÿ?ÿ
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Are people seriously still Giving away the farm and taking that kind of risk??ÿ ?ÿwow.?ÿ ?ÿWe are in the information biz, people.?ÿ We sweat and bleed to collect it and make it into a usable format for the laymen.?ÿ ?ÿ Why would you ever give that away??ÿ?ÿ
You did the work and were paid for it.?ÿ If you don't get the job again, it's no cost to you.?ÿ But if you send out an old copy you are at more risk tomorrow than today.?ÿ What's that worth??ÿ?ÿ
I've had this discussion/argument countless times over the years with buyers, real estate agents, banks, etc.?ÿ My policy is If it comes out of my office, it's updated.?ÿ end of story.?ÿ If the buyer finds an old copy of a map in the public records, that's none of my business.?ÿ?ÿ
I'd go sit on the beach if I'm not getting paid anyway.?ÿ but that's just me.?ÿ?ÿ
Is Dan Beardslee's book still available anywhere ???ÿ It's been my "bible" for years.?ÿ?ÿ
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edit... Here ya go!
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https://www.amazon.com/Business-Management-Handbook-Land-Surveyors/dp/0980059631
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Andy
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It's NOT up to the previous client At All.?ÿ It's our intellectual property.?ÿ
I don't have to call an old client to ask them if I can use the data that I collected.?ÿ
I don't have to even give them a?ÿ copy of an old survey map I did for them.?ÿ ?ÿThey would have gotten a copy of it when the project was done.?ÿ They paid for the survey (the actual field work) and got the map (the graphic depiction of the results of the Survey) and that's that.?ÿ If they didn't keep a copy of it, I'm not under any obligation to provide them with another at any time in the future.?ÿ If it's a court case, that's different.?ÿ?ÿ
Don't be naive..?ÿ ?ÿThey usually are asking for old maps because they are selling again and want it for the new closing, and they will simply sign an owners affidavit that nothing has changed.?ÿ ?ÿBut maybe the neighbors went and moved the pins two feet over...?ÿ and then built a fence.?ÿ ?ÿOr the client built a garage?ÿ too close to the property lines and doesn't want the buyers to find out.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿOf course that's not your fault, but you better believe you'll be dragged into court and asked when and why you released that old map.?ÿ WE are supposed to know better than the general public, and are held to a higher standard.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ Cha Ching for your insurance company.?ÿ ?ÿ
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This is basic ethics.?ÿ It is unethical to charge Client-A $1000 for a boundary then charge the owner abutting Client-A a discounted price just because you already performed a portion of the work.?ÿ It is unethical practice to discount subsequent owners without express permission of the original client.?ÿ The original client paid for the survey (they did not necessarily pay for the data you cataloged).?ÿ It is their survey, and they and only they have the ability to resell their survey.?ÿ You need to get their permission to resell it if you are not going to revisit the site and modify the plat with all new dates, title, notes, etc..?ÿ I see no ethical problem with using the old data to create a new survey and any "update" is in fact a new survey even if the only thing that changes is the title and date.?ÿ?ÿ
I wouldn't charge a penny less than I did on the previous survey.?ÿ Please consider that you are viewing this scenario only through the eyes of the new client to whom you have no prior or present contractual attachment.?ÿ The new client may hire you, but your old client already hired and paid you.?ÿ You owe your old client more consideration than the stranger that you are now dealing with.?ÿ?ÿ
I grew up in rural Maine in a family of loggers.?ÿ It is not natural for me to assign monetary value to my knowledge.?ÿ I felt guilty the first time I charged the same price for a survey that I had done previously.?ÿ I kept thinking that I should rerun my traverse as if the fieldwork was the most valuable portion of what I do.?ÿ Fieldwork is simply data collection.?ÿ It is the disseminating of the inferences of data that is valuable.?ÿ?ÿ
The original client does not own or have any possessory ownership claim to any prior survey that they paid for. Where in the world did that idea?ÿcome from?
The original clent paid for a survey not any claim of ownership and you don't need to get their bloody permission to survey it for another client.
What in the world is it gonna take for surveyors to stop being so consumed with guilt over making a profit and charging for the work and knowledge and risk.?ÿ?ÿ
The previous client owns the deliverable we provided. Any new client gets a new survey. It is my professional judgement what to charge and how much of my old data to use.
I will charge the value of the product I am providing, no more and definitely NO LESS.
The original client does not own or have any possessory ownership claim to any prior survey that they paid for. Where in the world did that idea?ÿcome from?
The original clent paid for a survey not any claim of ownership and you don't need to get their bloody permission to survey it for another client.
What in the world is it gonna take for surveyors to stop being so consumed with guilt over making a profit and charging for the work and knowledge and risk.?ÿ?ÿ
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AMEN, Brother!?ÿ
Do any of you advertise?
how much money and time do you spend?Sometimes a quick update or simple copy, for Free, goes a long long way. Depends on the client and the project, but think about it.
Good point.
If this request came from one of my sources of referrals that currently feed me work like architects, builders, realtors, attorneys in town that I KNOW are loyal to me, I'd probably just send it out. Those folks are my livelihood as they allow me to not have to compete entirely on price. That's huge!
This particular call came from someone random that just reached out because we are close by.
I have no guilt in making profit, just the opposite. But like Peter said, big picture thinking is valuable too. Stubbornly insisting on making a few extra bucks on a relatively small job may be myopic thinking in cases.
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
