Missouri is crooked that way supporting the title companies and screwing the public. Fortunately, I don't work there and don't plan to ever do so. It's a glorious pain in the youknow for people simply working on genealogy and similar non-business research.
I'll chime in and hopefully become wiser.
Around here any land transaction of fiscal consequence (read a mortgage) the bank requires a title report (and possibly much more, Subdivision guarantee, for example) and the purchaser usually buys a survey (an ALTA survey minimum or a full civil and Subdivision package, thousands of dollars a lot for all the marching through the design and regulatory processes) to protect themselves and eliminate the Schedule B exclusion "defects that a survey may reveal", roughly.
From then on the title company (if it's a reputable firm) and I are good buddies. I march through Schedule B with the reference documents in hand, provided by the title co. upon request, and inform them of items which "do not apply" (wrong parcel, formally abandoned easement, absorbed by a street widening, etc.) or are "blanket in nature" (ancient and unenforceable) based on my limited review of problem encumbrances at the Courthouse, and suggest they be stricken. My map will locate all locatable easements of record with a reference to the source document(s). I also inform them of physical evidence based on my survey like mystery power poles, manholes with no easement, strange water meters on the other side of the back lot line, driveway entrances with no record street access, well worn paths down to the beach on the edge of the property, encroachments, everything I can see on the ground, which they get quite excited about and either insure against or come up with supporting docs to add to Schedule B. Sometimes we get into tiffs where they insist I remove a manhole location from my map and I stand my ground, sorry, insure it.
Funny thing is, no money changes hands. It's a push, they do the drudge work of pulling up (the possibly 50 or more) record encumbrances, I locate or reject (sometimes am only puzzled by) them, they get my boots on the ground report and possibly save their asses from a serious surprise. The bank and purchaser (who are paying) are much more comfortable, I've shifted liability to the Title Co., they've burdened me with performing a proper survey. What's not to love?
OTOH, I've bought property cash on the barrel with no title report, just walked the land, sniffed around at the Courthouse and delivered the check to escrow. It's called "going bare" and my title co. buddies say that's a reasonable approach for low value land; where they really don't care much about location and encumbrances, their main concern is that the grantor(s) have clear title to the land, there are no multiple sales, surprise mortgages or distant relatives with a signatory interest, etc. Not something surveyors are involved in so I never thought about that aspect of title insurance.
Am I wrong? Aren't Title Companies one of the best entities to be involved with when surveying land where the stakes are high?
Mike Marks, post: 380251, member: 1108 wrote: I'll chime in and hopefully become wiser.
Around here any land transaction of fiscal consequence (read a mortgage) the bank requires a title report (and possibly much more, Subdivision guarantee, for example) and the purchaser usually buys a survey (an ALTA survey minimum or a full civil and Subdivision package, thousands of dollars a lot for all the marching through the design and regulatory processes) to protect themselves and eliminate the Schedule B exclusion "defects that a survey may reveal", roughly.
From then on the title company (if it's a reputable firm) and I are good buddies. I march through Schedule B with the reference documents in hand, provided by the title co. upon request, and inform them of items which "do not apply" (wrong parcel, formally abandoned easement, absorbed by a street widening, etc.) or are "blanket in nature" (ancient and unenforceable) based on my limited review of problem encumbrances at the Courthouse, and suggest they be stricken. My map will locate all locatable easements of record with a reference to the source document(s). I also inform them of physical evidence based on my survey like mystery power poles, manholes with no easement, strange water meters on the other side of the back lot line, driveway entrances with no record street access, well worn paths down to the beach on the edge of the property, encroachments, everything I can see on the ground, which they get quite excited about and either insure against or come up with supporting docs to add to Schedule B. Sometimes we get into tiffs where they insist I remove a manhole location from my map and I stand my ground, sorry, insure it.
Funny thing is, no money changes hands. It's a push, they do the drudge work of pulling up (the possibly 50 or more) record encumbrances, I locate or reject (sometimes am only puzzled by) them, they get my boots on the ground report and possibly save their asses from a serious surprise. The bank and purchaser (who are paying) are much more comfortable, I've shifted liability to the Title Co., they've burdened me with performing a proper survey. What's not to love?
OTOH, I've bought property cash on the barrel with no title report, just walked the land, sniffed around at the Courthouse and delivered the check to escrow. It's called "going bare" and my title co. buddies say that's a reasonable approach for low value land; where they really don't care much about location and encumbrances, their main concern is that the grantor(s) have clear title to the land, there are no multiple sales, surprise mortgages or distant relatives with a signatory interest, etc. Not something surveyors are involved in so I never thought about that aspect of title insurance.
Am I wrong? Aren't Title Companies one of the best entities to be involved with when surveying land where the stakes are high?
Hello Mike,
Thanks for taking the time and thank you for sharing your methods. I agree with what your saying 100% and try to follow a similar path.For me its always a learning experience so to be part of this forum is invaluable. I can't express enough my gratitude to its members.
Well in any event the wise and all knowing Engineer Project Manager finally listened after I spoke with the city engineer who agreed with having the Title Company do a search for existing easements. I believe we all know the situation where engineers think they know surveying and what surveyors should and should not be doing as they watch their budgets. Its a ridiculous fight that does not need to happen but does because of pride and because they may have taken a semester of elementary surveying 20 years ago.
So again thanks to all who responded to this thread, I appreciate your help.
Paul
I am fortunate in Tucson to be good friends with the best title people in town. We've known each other for decades, and we do favors for each other. They need a copy of a previous survey I run it over to them; if they need advice, we chat; if I need a copy of a document they send it to me in minutes. That's the way the system is supposed to work.
I am not a title person. They are, with decades of experience at getting it right, and that includes deciding if the easement is valid.
Bruce Small, post: 383441, member: 1201 wrote: I am fortunate in Tucson to be good friends with the best title people in town. We've known each other for decades, and we do favors for each other. They need a copy of a previous survey I run it over to them; if they need advice, we chat; if I need a copy of a document they send it to me in minutes. That's the way the system is supposed to work.
I am not a title person. They are, with decades of experience at getting it right, and that includes deciding if the easement is valid.
Hello Bruce, You are fortunate, I don't think its possible to establish a relationship like yours in Phoenix, its all about the money. Not to say its not worth trying. The next time I'm down your way I'd like to meet you. In any event, Thank You, Paul
On the subject of easements, this is what really irks me. Out of state client requests the national service of a large title company for the title report on land in Tucson. Several excellent local title officers have worked on that site for decades and know it thoroughly, but they werenÛªt asked for their opinion. The clientÛªs attorney objected to some verbiage on one of the Schedule B items, an electric easement that runs through this site, so the national service, ever anxious to please, removed all reference to that easement from the title report.
(I had a fit.)
Bruce Small, post: 383451, member: 1201 wrote: On the subject of easements, this is what really irks me. Out of state client requests the national service of a large title company for the title report on land in Tucson. Several excellent local title officers have worked on that site for decades and know it thoroughly, but they werenÛªt asked for their opinion. The clientÛªs attorney objected to some verbiage on one of the Schedule B items, an electric easement that runs through this site, so the national service, ever anxious to please, removed all reference to that easement from the title report.
(I had a fit.)
Wow....I can't imagine your frustration. I recently attended the APLS yearly seminar where Jeff Kent and Jeff Lucas both had a lot to say about attorneys and others providing for themselves at surveyors expense...things such as certifications where the onus is shifted to the surveyor. We had a bid on one of those large solar generation fields in California, cant remember the town but in the research I discovered a federal transmission line running through the site, similar to yours....the developers were surprised, its the first they heard of it. Its interesting how things unfold.
Nothing upsets dreamers more than being forced to face cold, hard reality.