Root Balls

I wouldn't think that it would move 1.6 feet. Leon found that target point years after that stand of Aspens grew up around i? maybe he will chime in and let us know how much it moved.

I know that a vertical benchmark in a tree trunk will remain at the same elevation over many years, and I'd have to believe that the same would be true for horizontal positions. Is it possible that the tree existed when the corner was set, making it necessary to put the corner on an offset?

I've typically found that the tree grows around the obstruction (monument) rather than moving it.

With horizontal items (like chain and wire-rope), I've seen trunks engulf abhorrent objects.

With vertical obstructions (pins), I've found them "en-caved" (made up word) in the base of trees.

These pins are detectable with schonstedt and, once noted, generally can be touched, or seen, in an indentation in the base of the trunk. The trunks seem to warp around the vertical pin from the sides and top. But, they don't completely cover it, as with the horizontal, chain/ wire-rope. En-Cave.

To run with the idea, vegetation is nimble and soft on it's growing edges. These tendrils/ roots, although strong and persistent, meld around harder obstructions and continue further before maturity hardens the areas no longer on the growing edges.

So, I don't think you'd find a tree "moving" an iron on the order of > 1-ft. Definitely, a coupl'a-few tenths but, I haven't seen/ wouldn't expect much more.

I think the tree would eventually engulf (completely cover) a pin if allowed to grow that large in the presence of a smaller diameter (under 2-ish inches) obstruction.

Good luck.

There's nothing in the record to indicate it was offset. I've seen these trees push through asphalt and concrete. Their ability to displace objects in their way is amazing. Question is, can they move a 30" rebar as they expand out, or simply engulf it.

The 3/4" pipe shown below was set in 1973, and is now hard against the trunk of that almond tree. When I recovered it last spring, the measurement between this pipe and another that was set on the same 1973 survey (about 1200 feet away) came up within 0.03'.

Not the clearest picture, but it looks to me like the root has moved the tile against the disk and rod.
http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=MG0891

From what I've seen, trees grow "around" objects, they rarely displace them.

Like above posters, I'm of the notion that the roots will not displace anything that far if set in an existing root/stump. New growth.. unlikely. Even a cottonwood won't really get to 24" plus in 20 or 30 yrs? dunno.

I'd be thinking either an offset corner, or a lazy party chief. If the corner fell in the middle of the tree, then offset it along the property lines at some predisposed distance. Perhaps 1.5 ft here. Maybe even 2 ft? Does it fit on your property line?

Look along another line. Only 3 to chose from? Who is to say it was your property that got surveyed?

Or just call it off yourself as a "found witness corner" to where you want it to be. It sounds like lots of wiggle room in your case.

> What is your opinion based on your experience. I'm not an arborist.

The question is whether the roots would displace a survey monument in contact with them as the roots grow, not whether the trunk would, right?

I'd say that roots certainly can do that by an amount equal to half the diameter of the root, as witness any bit of curb or sidewalk that has been broken or lifted by displaced by tree roots. However, if the survey marker remains basically plumb, it seems very unlikely that a tree root has shifted the marker by more than 1 ft., depositing the marker, still plumb, in a new position for surveyors to argue about.

I've found barbed wire that was attached to trees 6 inches inside the tree 50 60 years later, so I would be inclined to vote with it hasn't moved much. In my area a 1973 survey was probably done with a chain so 1.6' of error wouldn't alarm me much. Theodolites and EDM's were just beginning to be used about then by the big money outfits. What they do around here is put their pin in 6 inches from yours. Are you surveying high value real estate with a possible encroachment, or just trying to mark the line for some rancher to fence in his cows? You and the other Surveyor apparently have some issues maybe?

> I know that a vertical benchmark in a tree trunk will remain at the same elevation over many years, and I'd have to believe that the same would be true for horizontal positions.

yes, i have heard that a bench mark in a tree trunk should hold a continuous elevation over time. in a root, i am not certain

with respect to horizontal position, i suspect that the type of tree would matter: a straight grained wood like maple probably would hold a tack in the same coord for years, but in a bristlecone pine, no. that one follows the sun, making the grain twisted, and will not hold horizontal marks well. a bristlecone might be an extreme example, and your mileage may vary based on indigenous species and their characteristics

Roots grow the same way the tree does (seeking water and nutrients rather than sun). New growth expands from the end of the root and existing root stays in place but gains diameter. If the marker is vertical it was either driven into an existing root or the root grew around it without knocking it out of place. In either case, it's in original location.

Could be remembering wrong (forestry class was 1981) but markers I've found in roots over the years would also lead me to this conclusion.

From my past experience I haven't seen trees move objects. As mentioned above, I've seen barbed wire buried deep in trees and have chipped out to find a 1/2" witness rod about a 1" inside of an oak tree trunk.

Short answer: yes and no.

Long answer: roots, trunk and the burl which is the transition from root to trunk, all have common growth characteristics in that the growth occurs at the cambium layer.

The cambium layer is sandwiched between the deposited woody portion and the deposited bark portion. As the cambium grows it deposits wood on one side and bark on the other. The cambium is the growing membrane and the bark and wood are the dead deposited cells.

As the cambium layer grows and deposits dead cells on each side of it, that growth exerts a small pressure. Enough pressure to lift sidewalks, move foundations and on.

If you cut open a root, you will not find small rock, pebbles or sand and clay in it for the most part. This is because that small pressure the cambium growth exerts against the bark layer causes the bark layer to shove and displace the soils it is growing in. A root and burl will displace much of the soil and gravel it grows in.

However, when its growth vector encounters something that has enough resisting force, the cambium becomes compressed and stops growing. The compressive pressure required to stop that portion of the cambium's growth is fairly small.

Foundations and sidewalks are displaced once the area of pressure is large enough to create a force greater than that resisted. This is why small objects such as a driven rebar or a wrought iron chair back (see tax evader's picture) is "grown around" with small displacement, while larger area objects such as a cinder block foundation can be shoved considerably if there is insufficient lateral bracing. When the area of pressure (square inches of bark surface encountered) is greater than the resistive force encountered, the effect is lateral displacement. The pressure per square inch is constant, the amount of force exerted is dependant on the area exerted upon. Area x Pressure = Force.

Benchmarks, nails, rebars, etc which are driven through the cambium layer will remain stable in position due to the cambium being penetrated. In the example some have discussed above about verticle benchmarks, the benchmark has been driven through the bark and cambium and is embedded in the dead woody cells. If the head of the benchmark is large enough, once the cambium and bark layer grow out to it, there will be pressure exerted on the head of the benchmark in an outward direction. If the rest of the benchmark is embedded enough into the dead wood cells, the holding power of the friction force between the dead woody material and benchmark will likely be greater than the total force exerted on the head of benchmark by the cambium and bark layer. And the benchmark will remain in position. If the head of the benchmark is large enough, and the embedment is small or loose, the benchmark will be shoved outward.

:good: Good explanation, someone was paying attention in Silvics Class

Very much apreciated clearcut and everyone else. Without an X-ray of the tree to see if corner is still in a plumb position, I just won't know. What I found curious and made me doubt the position was the difference between measured vs. record distance to the nearest corner was roughly equal to half the diameter of the tree. Possibly a coincidence, possibly not.

A Pin In A Root Should Not Move

I have placed them. A pin against a root could be moved or may become encased.

I found one against a root within 0.3' and held the geometry, the geometry being rather tight, the pin being a monument to the corner. It may have moved or it may have been set as close as possible when it was set.

Absent confirming ties one must assume the pin is original. If it has moved due to natural circumstances should it be treated as other natural objects such as streams?

Paul in PA

We have a Cottonwood tree in the front yard that my wife planted about 25 years ago. She bought a Maple. When I told her it wasn't a Maple she said it's a different kind of Maple than grows wild around here. When it started releasing cotton, I convinced her it was a Cottonwood. In all fairness to her, She had me believing it was a different kind of maple for several years.

It's 26 inches at about 3' high and forks just above that. 80 feet tall stepping it off with a clinometer.

In reference to the rebar being pushed, I have seen it do both. Some farmers around here will put a 4-6" wide piece of tin or flashing on a tree before nailing wire to it. The tree pushes the tin out, the tin pushes the wire out.

I have seen pins that were leaned over from a tree growing and I have seen trees grow around a pin. I believe it's just a matter of how much force it takes to lean a pin in any particular type of soil. I have never seen one pushed out that was still vertical.

If I have to set a pin right against a tree, I will skin the tree thru the cambium layer with the rebar when I set it. I think it makes the tree grow around it. I could be wrong, my wife say's I usually am.

James

Wait another 43 years and re-shoot it. Put the coordinates into an Excel 2057 spreadsheet and extract the deltas. Voila.