$500, You spent more than that on the phone call and posting to this forum!
Until we as a profession as a whole start charging for what things really cost this is going to be the mind set of people. Take your employees wages and add a three times multiplier and start the hourly billable hour from there :). Trucks, equipment, wood, new equipment and trucks in the future. So many of these companies have no business experience and are killing our profession. There was a guy at a local chapter meeting sawing that he lost $6,000 and is going to have to close the business after 30 years. Just because you have a PLS behind your name doesn't mean you know how to run a business. Sorry for the rant, but the guys doing construction staking jobs and ALTA surveys for $1,000 are idiots and only hurting themselves. Its not even worth setting up a project number, doing your due diligence research (record of surveys, a joiner deeds, locating controlling monumentation, locating encroachments) to name just a little bit of what should happen for less than $1,000. Okay I'm stopping now.
Jesusfreak, post: 452320, member: 12874 wrote: Until we as a profession as a whole start charging for what things really cost this is going to be the mind set of people.
On a construction site this morning. Dirt sub driving an Escalade. Surveyor has an '06 F150. Just sayin'.
We pinned a house a couple of weeks ago, the head mason drove a 2017 chevy 3500 LTZ, his poor help was only in about a 2015 Denali. We have a 2001 explorer sport trac.
I heard a story about fifteen years ago of a guy selling land to folks under the same terms, low down, monthly payments. When things didn't work out and folks left, he gets the land back and starts over again.
There's also some hard luck stories of homeowners after Harvey. A lot of people capitalizing on misfortune.
I'm working out of a 1996 Jeep Cherokee. It rattles and bangs and leaks oil and the muffler is a little loud.
I make more with that Jeep than I would in a brand new anything. Have you seen the cost of vehicles lately?
mattharnett, post: 452418, member: 6458 wrote: Have you seen the cost of vehicles lately?
If you have to look at the price tag you can't afford it. But it seems like a lot of trades don't really have to look at price tags these days. Surveyors do. And that's the point.
[QUOTE="Surveyors do. And that's the point.
Exactly, a vehicle that old should have been depreciated out years ago. Not that its all about show, but showing up with a professional vehicle and equipment does matter. We need to change the image of the profession from a bunch of beer drinking, cigarette smoking hicks to professionals. I have ran into this so much over the years that it makes me sick. Surveyors have a solid foundation to build from (look at Mt. Rushmore). I was just in Nashville, TN and there is a plaque for Colonel John Donelson and on it, it talks about him being a distinguished and noted Surveyor. Lets get back to being known as that!
Jesusfreak, post: 452320, member: 12874 wrote: Sorry for the rant, but the guys doing construction staking jobs and ALTA surveys for $1,000 are idiots and only hurting themselves.
I don't do any ALTA surveys. But I have been in business 30 years doing nothing but construction surveying and it is very financially rewarding. 🙂
The way I look at it, really depends upon one's target market. One I can keep my overhead as low as possible, driving a 20 year old vehicle and using old equipment and compete for the $500 lot surveys that end up taking more than a day after all the research (if I'm lucky), holding client's hand and justifying the expense, field work and computations and end up with jack-diddly in the bank towards my eventual retirement in the end if I choose. OR go after the professional services market where there is a steady demand for my services, whether that be engineering, construction, utilities, government, ect., where I'm required and expected to maintain a professional appearance, vehicle, skill set, equipment, and I am compensated accordingly. To be compensated as a professional, I first have to be perceived as such and I figured out some time ago which of those two business models fit my goals better.
I wouldn't judge our profession or perceive income by the types of vehicles other trades drive. Its extremely easy to get an auto loan on a brand new vehicle that you cant afford. My dad owns a construction business and half of his employees have vehicles that are worth more than mine, but that doesn't mean they make more money than I do. One of his employees in particular drives a very fancy newish GMC LTZ, he also has a high end camaro and he makes $15/hr. I dont know where he lives but its probably a real sh*t hole. There is a repo yard not far from my house and its loaded with fancy vehicles people bought and couldnt afford. I could go out and buy a brand new Mercedes if I wanted to, but i dont because its not a smart financial decision.
Jesusfreak, post: 452320, member: 12874 wrote: $500, You spent more than that on the phone call and posting to this forum!
Until we as a profession as a whole start charging for what things really cost this is going to be the mind set of people. Take your employees wages and add a three times multiplier and start the hourly billable hour from there :). Trucks, equipment, wood, new equipment and trucks in the future. So many of these companies have no business experience and are killing our profession. There was a guy at a local chapter meeting sawing that he lost $6,000 and is going to have to close the business after 30 years. Just because you have a PLS behind your name doesn't mean you know how to run a business. Sorry for the rant, but the guys doing construction staking jobs and ALTA surveys for $1,000 are idiots and only hurting themselves. Its not even worth setting up a project number, doing your due diligence research (record of surveys, a joiner deeds, locating controlling monumentation, locating encroachments) to name just a little bit of what should happen for less than $1,000. Okay I'm stopping now.
I understand your point but we are in different markets. $500 is high for a lot survey around here, I dont get many even at that price. The going rate around here is $385-$450. If those guys would raise there prices I think it would help everyone involved. I know they are worth more than even $500 though. I think they are worth about $1,000 at minimum. I started my business in January and these kinds of surveys are not my target market, but I do them every now and then. I quoted $2,000 for a 5 acre boundary survey recently, I didnt get it, it went to a company that quoted $800. I very frequently get outbid by 50% and thats ok I still have plenty of work.
RPLS#, post: 452440, member: 12280 wrote: I understand your point but we are in different markets. $500 is high for a lot survey around here, I dont get many even at that price. The going rate around here is $385-$450.
Why hang your business model on that kind of work then? I know it's easier said than done, but life is going to be easier when you find a different kind of client. The going rate for lot jobs in Portland is 10 times that, which does improve the quality, but it is still hard to make money in that service area because of the work required and the ever present downward pressure on prices.
Mark Mayer, post: 452442, member: 424 wrote: Why hang your business model on that kind of work then? I know it's easier said than done, but life is going to be easier when you find a different kind of client. The going rate for lot jobs in Portland is 10 times that, which does improve the quality, but it is still hard to make money in that service area because of the work required and the ever present downward pressure on prices.
And employees from BPA, WSDOT, ODOT, along with unlicensed field crew working on the weekends, giving estimates at prices you can't even draft the survey for.
Howard Surveyor, post: 452554, member: 8835 wrote: And employees from BPA, WSDOT, ODOT, along with unlicensed field crew working on the weekends, giving estimates at prices you can't even draft the survey for.
If you're competing with public employees, they should possibly be reported. I imagine that they are going against company policy and could be terminated if they are doing jobs on the side without written permission from their appointing authority. They definitely should not be using the employer's equipment and I'm sure they could definitely be reprimanded for that. Or are you just saying that as an example?
Jesusfreak, post: 452425, member: 12874 wrote: a plaque for Colonel John Donelson and on it, it talks about him being a distinguished and noted Surveyor. Lets get back to being known as that!
They surveyed with mules. I'm more professional than that I think.
Tom Adams, post: 452571, member: 7285 wrote: If you're competing with public employees, they should possibly be reported. I imagine that they are going against company policy and could be terminated if they are doing jobs on the side without written permission from their appointing authority. They definitely should not be using the employer's equipment and I'm sure they could definitely be reprimanded for that. Or are you just saying that as an example?
I can think of one public agency where there's definitely no prohibition concerning moonlighting, and it's widespread. Use of public equipment in the field not so much, but working on personal projects in the office on company time (computers, phone calls, research, large format plotters, etc.) seems to be tolerated. Who's going to complain as long as they're discreet about it? Especially if the moonlighter is outperforming his/her peers otherwise.
Mike Marks, post: 452583, member: 1108 wrote: I can think of one public agency where there's definitely no prohibition concerning moonlighting, and it's widespread. Use of public equipment in the field not so much, but working on personal projects in the office on company time (computers, phone calls, research, large format plotters, etc.) seems to be tolerated. Who's going to complain as long as they're discreet about it? Especially if the moonlighter is outperforming his/her peers otherwise.
If it's against company policy, there is good reason for a complaint. IF their using public equipment for profit, I suspect that is not acceptable. The complainer would be the person losing work because of unfair competition. (If their using their own equipment and researching on their own time, that's a different matter, but it might require official approval by their agency)
Mike Marks, post: 452583, member: 1108 wrote: I can think of one public agency where there's definitely no prohibition concerning moonlighting
Most of the public agencies that employ surveyors around here work a 4-10s schedule, meaning that employees have a day during the workweek to look after their little side jobs. Very common and above board.
Nevada has, more or less, codified that those dang government employees can use government property on their days off.
NRS??625.570????Public officer or employee prohibited from engaging in private practice of professional engineering or land surveying during certain hours...
Public employees are prohibited from using publicly owned equipment and time to do private work; not saying it doesn't happen but it's against the rules.
When I did side business I owned my own equipment and used my own time. The work dried up in the 2008 crash and I don't miss it. I spend most weekends working on the house or with my personal railroad consultant (at left). He likes to go to the park and I like him to go to the park to get fresh air, sunshine, exercise, mental and motor development.
