Rhode Island Bill would strip away all but Boundary Surveys.

Other states already allow that. Do those states have surveyors? I fail to see how this legislation would hurt the average landowner, since it appears that this bill is only to allow engineers to do topo surveys on engineering projects. They can't go out and market topo surveying services.

In Virginia and engineer can do a topo if it is incidental to his project.

> it appears that this bill is only to allow engineers to do topo surveys on engineering projects. They can't go out and market topo surveying services.

What use is a topo if not for engineering design? It seems to me that the proposed legislation wouldn't restrict the ability of engineers to market topo services.

CA is one of those states that has long allowed civil engineers to do any surveying not related boundary, including topos.

How many states allow surveyors to perform engineering services that are incidental to our projects?

This is indicative of the problem in many states, surveying is looked upon by engineers and many others as only a lower form of engineering; you know, the red-headed step child analogy.

In my state, surveying is nearly fully regulated by engineers, where we only have a token representation on the licensing board, and zero representation at the board staff level where most of the regulation (damage) is done.

Sooner or later, we as professional surveyors, are going to need to stand up and take back our profession or the moves we are seeing in Florida, etc. will only spread, and will be the ultimate end of our profession. And guess what? WE will only have ourselves to blame. Maybe we deserve it.

> Sooner or later, we as professional surveyors, are going to need to stand up and take back our profession or the moves we are seeing in Florida, etc. will only spread, and will be the ultimate end of our profession. And guess what? WE will only have ourselves to blame. Maybe we deserve it.

yep, sticking your head in the sand, being everybodys patsy, missing the big picture, not being agressive, not being early adopters of technology....basically being a dumb a$$ as a group can only work so long until the lion eats the sheep.

Time to get greedy, get smart, grow some balls, and be grown ups....its time to bite back.

What I'd like to know from all the 'professions' trying to simulate traditional land surveying, and more specifically the topo engineers can perform is this, What on the engineering plans is not somehow related to the boundary? in other words, everything that engineers need or base their design on at some point requires a knowledge of boundary lines, and yes this also includes a topo map, construction stakeout is property line sensitive, especially dealing with sewer, water or storm drain easements for a construction site, which is quite common. So I just wonder what happens to us and our profession after every governing body strips us down to what they think we should do.

Engineers doing a topo/staking here is ok if no boundary involved.

Not very common though in our area.

Again I refer to Evidence... Fifth Edition. I have to say I agree with this statement.

From 17-3
Within property-boundary surveying practice there are many workers, each of whom is different in capabilities and personalities. A significant failure is to properly distinguish between technical level work and professional level work and responsibilities. On highway work the engineer in charge has surveyors who make measurements to determine the shape of the ground. The surveyors are merely measuring the ground as it exists and recording the facts as they are. To be sure, the surveyor must have superior ability in knowing how to use instruments and how to make measurements, but these acts are technical in nature and not professional. They do not include road and drainage design, nor do they utilize the measurements they produce.

Again, the engineer may tell surveyors to grade stake a road in accordance with a given plan. Since no design or judgement is involved, it is a purely technical matter. To some engineers, surveyors are technicians who carry out orders. And often surveyors are just that. But the engineer frequently overlooks the fact that a professional property surveyor has both technical attributes and professional attributes.

I really think the focus on all the trade magazines out there have been focusing on technological advances rather than showcasing demonstrated professional prowess. I get it, they are paid for by equipment and software manufacturers so that is how the bills are paid.

In my view boundary surveying is and always should be the exclusive realm of licensed land surveyors. I guess one could look at how licensing/registration is handled in other countries for a guide.

Like it or not, machine control, scanning and reduced price in equipment is changing the face of construction surveying. The heavy construction companies hold far more sway with legislatures and when there is a perception that statutes are costing the state and contractors money, things will change. The writing has been on the wall for at least the last few years.

The real tragedy to me is that construction surveying work has been the bread and butter of the many CE firms that also offered surveying services. Providing a boundary for 1/3 to 1/2 the real value is/was far too common because a firm would then typically get all of the construction surveying work on a new development. This is a bad approach, in my opinion. Works great in the short term for a given firm, but doesn't do much to maintain our profession.

Surveyors intentionally devalued a professional service to gain higher profit from technical work performed. Not saying that anybody could have saw this coming; it is what it is. The current situation is nobodies fault but our own.

Surveyors will still be involved in construction surveying, but it probably isn't going to be the financial cornerstone of a business like it used to be. Opportunities will exist for specialized surveyors, but that surveyor is going to face a lot of pressure and competition from non-licensed individuals as statutes are relaxed (in my view this is inevitable). Unless they are working for the heavy construction company (ie on the payroll, not a subconstractor). This is already happening.

How do we convince the general public that our professional service (ie boundary surveying) is worth more than they have been paying for the last 30 years?

That is the state of our industry, in my view.

Virginia does. However, you obtain a 3B license in surveying to do so and you can not mess with pressured systems (although I have seem some push that limit to an extreme).

Been that way in CA since 1982 when surveyors split off from engineers. Engineers could alwasy do topographic and construction staking.

Not a big deal as far as I have seen. Engineers usually hire surveyors for the most part still as it is more of a specialty they don't want to do anyways.

I know a engineering firm I worked for didn't want any of the surveying because of the liability it entailed for the small return. Usually the surveying is a fairly small portion of any development or fixed works project in relation to the amount of liability exposure.

Not an issue as far as competition here either. We have close to 50,000 civil engineers and about 4,000 land surveyors who are practicing. Most topo and staking still go to the surveyors.

In Georgia Surveyors are allowed to do hydraulic calculations and design. AND, even though I'm an Engineer I have to take the Hydraulics portion of the Land Surveyors test for my license there.

Since this is going on in multiple states, it looks like it's being initiated by the Civil Engineers. They're going after your livelihoods.

A Slight correction Licensing was separated in 1962 and the Boards parted ways in 1990 and with that division, a statute was adopted that defined what surveying was and is in Rhode Island.

The split in the boards was to correct a problem and to correct an unbalanced situation in order to protect the the Health, Wealth, and Welfare of all land owners and the general public.

Most of us understand how technology has changed the definition by common practice of other professionals as evidenced by the GIS community. Rhode Island has gone as far as working out a MOU with GIS Practitioners http://www.rispls.org/MOU/RISPLS-RIGIS-MOU- [01-25-2011].pdf

No doubt it has been held that engineers are qualified to take measurements that are incidental to their design work, but Surveying courses have been dropped from many engineering schools as a required core curriculum coarse.

There comes a point when a Registered Professional Land Surveyor should be doing/supervising a project in order to ensure that the survey portion of the work is completed to the proper Standards. Many plans and designs should have an Engineers Seal and a Surveyors Seal before it is deemed “Authoritative” and accepted by a public official for action.

The Colonial States are very difficult Land Administration System and we should be transitioning towards a Cadastral 2014 Model instead of moving backwards.

ejob

What school in RI dosen't provide engineering students with survey classes?? URI probably the number one school in the state of RI for engineering requires 2 courses. URI also educates their engineers in GPS. Below is what I copied from the URI web site

240 Geomatics (2)
Science and technology of obtaining and utilizing earth measurement data, including the description and purpose of field surveying equipment, including the automatic level, transit, EDM instrument, electronic total station, and GPS instrument. Includes the collection, sorting, storage, analysis, and presentation of data for engineering purposes. (Lec. 2) Pre: MTH 141.

241 Geomatics Lab. (1)
Field and laboratory experience in the operation and care of surveying equipment (including the automatic level, transit, EDM instrument, electronic total station, and GPS instrument), and the application of electronically collected field data for engineering planning and design, using a CADD program. (Lab. 3). Pre: credit or concurrent enrollment in 240.

Below is the URI Required Courses for Civil Engineering ~ While URI may still offer Survey/Geomatic Courses it is my understanding that these courses are no longer required as mandatory part of the Civil Degree Program. Traditionally in the past, Surveying courses were a mandatory requirement for a Civil Degree. That is no longer the case.

ejob

http://www.uri.edu/catalog/cataloghtml/ugrad/engineering.html#civilengineering

Civil Engineering
The Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering offers a curriculum leading to the Bachelor of Science (B.S.) degree in civil engineering and is accredited by ABET, Inc. The department also offers the Master of Science (M.S.) and Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) degrees in civil and environmental engineering.

Faculty: Professor Tsiatas, chair. Professors Lee, Veyera, and R. Wright; Associate Professors Baxter, Gindy, Hunter, Karamanlidis, Thiem, and Thomas; Assistant Professor Craver; Adjunct Professors Baird, Harr, and T. Wright; Adjunct Associate Professors Apostal and O’Neill; Adjunct Assistant Professors Badorek, George, and Osborn; Professors Emeriti Kovacs, Marcus, McEwen, Poon, and Urish.

Department Mission Statement. Consistent with the missions of the University of Rhode Island and the College of Engineering, the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering seeks to prepare students to practice professionally in the national and international marketplace in the field of Civil and Environmental Engineering through the provision of high quality undergraduate and graduate educational programs and research opportunities; provide an environment that encourages and supports faculty career development and professional/community service; actively promote diversity; and maintain a nationally recognized research program.

Program Mission Statement. Consistent with the mission of the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, the BSCE Program will prepare graduates for successful careers, advanced studies at the graduate level, and lifelong learning based upon a solid foundation of technical ability, high standards of professional ethics, and strong communication skills.

Program Educational Objectives. The BSCE program at URI has four primary objectives:

1) Produce graduates who are able to successfully practice civil engineering to serve local, state, regional, national and international industries, and government agencies.

2) Produce graduates with the necessary background and technical skills to work professionally in one or more of the following areas: environmental engineering, geotechnical engineering, structural engineering, transportation engineering, water resources engineering.

3) Prepare graduates for personal and professional success with awareness of and commitment to their ethical and social responsibilities, and diversity, both as individuals and in team environments.

4) Prepare graduates to be interested in, motivated for, and capable of pursuing continued lifelong learning through further graduate education or other training programs in engineering or related fields.

Program Outcomes. URI’s BSCE program will prepare graduates for successful careers and advanced graduate studies based upon a solid foundation of technical ability, high standards of professional ethics, and strong communication skills. Program outcomes describe what the students are expected to know and have the ability to do by the time of graduation. The attainment of these outcomes indicates that the student is equipped to achieve the BSCE program educational objectives. The outcomes for the BSCE program are as follows:

1) An appropriate fundamental understanding of mathematics, physics, chemistry, geology, and other basic sciences.

2) Basic computer skills consistent with application to civil engineering problem-solving.

3) Basic engineering knowledge across a range of subjects including mechanics, mechanics of materials, engineering construction materials, statics, dynamics, fluid mechanics, and CADD.

4) An understanding of basic economics, together with approaches to economics-based decision-making.

5) A working knowledge of probability and statistics as applied to civil engineering problems.

6) Basic technical proficiency in at least four of the recognized civil engineering focus areas.

7) An understanding of the intra-disciplinary approach in civil engineering problem-solving and design at the design project level through an integrated capstone design project experience.

8) Experience with individual and team-based approaches to civil engineering problem solving in the classroom, laboratory, and through an integrated capstone design project experience.

9) Practical and hands-on laboratory experience solving civil engineering problems involving measuring physical phenomena and interpreting results.

10) An understanding of ethics of engineering activities, professional standards and responsibilities, the relationships between engineering and society in general, and the necessity for lifelong learning.

11) Well-developed written communication skills, and experience with oral communications, both individually and on teams.

12) A broad understanding and global perspective of society in general by exposure to fine arts, literature, letters, foreign language or culture, social science, and English communications.

13) An opportunity to obtain membership in and become active in the student chapter of the American Society of Civil Engineers, develop teamwork and leadership skills, and participate in service activities related to the local community and the civil engineering professional society.

Civil engineers are responsible for researching, developing, planning, designing, constructing, and managing many of the complex systems and facilities essential to modern civilization. These include environmental engineering systems; water supply and pollution control systems; all types of transportation systems, from pipelines to city streets; structural systems from residential buildings to city skyscrapers, power plants, and offshore platforms; and all types of geotechnical systems from foundations to dams. Civil engineers play important roles in planning and administration with government agencies at all levels, especially those dealing with public works, transportation, environmental control, water supply, and renewable energy.

The curriculum provides students with an excellent background to pursue graduate study or to enter directly into professional practice in industry or government after graduation. The first year is devoted largely to courses in mathematics, chemistry, physics, and engineering science common to all engineering curriculums. During the sophomore year, students take three courses in civil engineering including mechanics of materials and two laboratories. In their last two years, students develop a proficiency in environmental engineering, geotechnical engineering, structural engineering, and transportation engineering. They can also meet their own professional goals through the selection of professional electives in these areas as well as construction management. Professional electives are selected in consultation with the student’s advisor.

The major requires 123 credits.

Freshman Year First semester: 16 credits

CHM 101 (3), 102 (1); EGR 105 (1); MTH 141 (4); PHY 203 (3), 273 (1), and general education requirement (3).

Second semester: 16 credits

EGR 106 (2); MTH 142 (4); PHY 204 (3), 274 (1); ECN 201 (3) (S), and general education requirement (3).

Sophomore Year First semester: 15 credits

CVE 205 (2); MCE 262 (3); MTH 243 (3), GEO 103 (4); and general education requirement (3).

Second semester: 16 credits

CVE 220 (3), 230 (1); MCE 263 (3); MTH 244 (3), and general education requirements (6).

Junior Year First semester: 17 credits

CVE 346 (3), 354 (3), 355 (1), 374 (3), 381 (3), 382 (1), and MCE 354 (3).

Second semester: 14 credits

CVE 370 (3), 375 (1), 347 (3), 348 (1); STA 409 (3), and one 3-credit engineering elective (details follow).

Senior YearFirst semester: 14 credits

CVE 465 (3), 497 [capstone] (2), general education requirement (3), and two 3-credit professional electives (details follow).

Second semester: 15 credits

CVE 483 (3), 498 [capstone] (3), free elective (3), and two 3-credit professional electives (details follow).

Electives. Three of the twelve credits of required professional electives must be selected from the following courses: CVE 470, 471, 475, 478. The remaining nine credits are to be selected from the list in the Civil Engineering Undergraduate Student Handbook. It is recommended that students consider selecting from the Civil Engineering professional elective courses to satisfy the free elective requirement. The three credits of engineering electives are to be selected from the list in the Civil Engineering Undergraduate Student Handbook.

Note: Students are also required to take the FE (Fundamentals of Engineering) examination.

Accelerated Five-Year B.S./M.S. Degree Program: FastTRAC5. This program allows qualified students to complete both the B.S. and M.S. degrees within five years. Students gain professional training by working at an engineering consulting firm or governmental agency. They also carry out research working closely with a faculty mentor. For admission into the program, students must have junior standing in civil and environmental engineering (minimum of 62 credits) and cumulative GPA of 3.00. Students must also maintain a cumulative GPA of 3.00 while in the program and pass the FE (Fundamentals of Engineering) examination. Additional information and a representative curriculum for the program can be found at: http://uri.edu/cve/undergraduate/FastTRAC5.pdf.