I'll post this as a separate thread so Dave's most excellent post doesn't get cluttered. I hope that Mark is okay with making it a separate thread.
Mark Mayer, post: 427138, member: 424 wrote: Once, a long time ago, I was told that it is appropriate to rotate such a monument 180å¡ when you "rehab" it to alert the next guy to the fact that it has been rehabbed.
I imagine that this was in Oregon, Mark?
My mentors in Nebraska never mentioned the above practice. In fact, they cautioned that if a stone is not found with the markings oriented according to the manual they should be regarded as suspect. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for some to move a public land corner to a more "convenient" place or stand it up after finding it laying on the ground. A lay person doing this likely isn't familiar with how the stone is marked.
I have applied the same logic to my retracement of mineral surveys. For mineral surveys, the mineral surveyor was instructed to orient the scribing on a wood post or chiseling on a stone to face the interior of the claim. Whenever I find the marks facing some other direction, I am alert to the possibility that it has been moved or plopped back in the ground by a lay person.
When I find a stone that is leaning, I will take a strike and dip of the stone with my Brunton so that with the record length of the stone I can virtually place the stone in an upright position in AutoCAD. For instances where I decide to rehab a leaning stone, I excavate the wedge of soil on the uphill side and rotate the stone to an upright position and rebuild the mound of stone.
In the case of the stone I found to be rotated 180å¡, I filed a monument record in 2002 describing the stone as I found it. The PLSS corners in this area do not define any patented land as all the patents are to mining claims. Their only useful purpose is as PLSS tie points to patented and unpatented mining claims in the area. In this case, I believe one of the miners in the area reset the stone when they staked some unpatented lode claims nearby. I don't believe that a Colorado PLS did the rehab, since mine is the only monument record filed for the corner.
As Cow said, there's always something to learn here!
No reason to rehab a stone, set a pipe in its place and record what you have done. Too many surveyors don't dig for stones or don't know how to recognize them. Landowners don't recognise them either, unless the land has been passed down through generations.
Definitely don't turn a stone. It is suspect if it is not in the orientation the notes say it was, just like a cap is suspect if it is not oriented North
In Idaho we are required to replace stones and bury them alongside the new monument. There are places where it's not possible. I hammerdrill those and set the monument through the rock.
[USER=2486]@aliquot[/USER]
There are thousands of suspect caps with my number and initials on them............because I didn't orient them North. The thought never entered my head until I read on this site about other surveyors doing that. You guys took the one wild and crazy, non-anal retentive, thing I do and almost convinced me to convert to your practice. Almost............didn't happen. They still go on randomly.
aliquot, post: 427165, member: 2486 wrote: No reason to rehab a stone, set a pipe in its place and record what you have done. Too many surveyors don't dig for stones or don't know how to recognize them. Landowners don't recognise them either, unless the land has been passed down through generations.
Definitely don't turn a stone. It is suspect if it is not in the orientation the notes say it was, just like a cap is suspect if it is not oriented North
I can see the reasoning of replacing original stone monuments with a pin and cap and burying the stone upside down near the corner to serve as a memorial. I happen to be on the other side of the fence and prefer to preserve the original monument when conditions permit. I usually try and avoid setting rebars for lost corners because mountain soils are nearly devoid of clay. I can easily pull out a 30" long, no. 6 rebar with a bare hand. If I can pull it out, then anyone else can too. The problem with flared base monuments is that bedrock is often closer than 2 feet in the areas that I work.
thebionicman, post: 427168, member: 8136 wrote: In Idaho we are required to replace stones and bury them alongside the new monument. There are places where it's not possible. I hammerdrill those and set the monument through the rock.
Here in Colorado, mineral survey corners are regarded like any PLSS aliquot corner as far as monumentation goes. If I have to set a lost mineral survey corner the minimum sized monument is 3/4" by 30" with a 2" metal cap. Board Rule 6.4.2.1 states:
Original Monuments Thad Do Not Have to be Upgraded. If the Public Land Survey Monument still exists in its originally set location and said monument is readily identifiable and reasonably durable, it does not have to be upgraded.
To my knowledge the Colorado Board has never said that original stone monuments are not durable.
I recently talked to the BLM Cadastral Chief about the rotated section corner and my intention that I would reorient the stone in the position I found it in 2001. I did not hear, "Gene, I wouldn't necessarily do that if I were you!" Also, at least here in Colorado there is a history (at least back to the 1980s) of the BLM not remonumenting original stone mineral survey corners when conducting a dependent resurvey as long as they are still firmly set. That works for me. Besides, the next surveyor to come along will likely be more excited to see an original stone instead of my old tarnished cap! Colorado surveyors are required to file monument records for any PLSS corner used as control (includes MS corners) and I usually set two, 2-foot long steel "T" fence posts with a stainless steel washer with my name and LS number as accessories. Better than setting a chunk of iron next to the stone! 🙂
Edit to add: Unless my client disagrees, I also submit shiny new NAD83 (NSRS 2011) Epoch 2010.0 coordinates to the BLM for inclusion into the GCDB.
Like I said, others are free to set shiny new monuments to replace old worn stones, but which would you rather see, two pretty stones or a couple of rebars and caps. Those two pins were too far away and too high in elevation to haul my airless jackhammer, shovel and flared base monuments. The rebar and steel "T" fence posts were enough for me to carry. At least the views were stunning.
Gene Kooper, post: 427178, member: 9850 wrote: Like I said, others are free to set shiny new monuments to replace old worn stones, but which would you rather see, two pretty stones or a couple of rebars and caps. Those two pins were too far away and too high in elevation to haul my airless jackhammer, shovel and flared base monuments. The rebar and steel "T" fence posts were enough for me to carry. At least the views were stunning.
Kinda reminds me of the area south and west of Leadville. Maybe in between Massive and Elbert around Champion.
A helicopter would be involved if I were to stop by to take a look at those monuments.
No one suggested setting a rebar. If that is your only option, than by all means leave the stone. Another thing far worse than leaving the stone in place is leaving the stone in place and setting a new monument along side. I have even seen a surveyor set a pipe along side a stone and set pipe RMs that reference, not the stone, but the new pipe???
Referencing the stone with the fence posts seems like a reasonable compromise.
BLM allows stone monuments to remain if the "officer in administrative charge" ( Chief cadastral surveyor) authorizes it, but, "the substitution of stone monuments for regulation posts should be authorized only in exceptional cases" (2009 Manual )
Many areas require monuments to be locatable with a metal detector.
Holy Cow, post: 427188, member: 50 wrote: A helicopter would be involved if I were to stop by to take a look at those monuments.
Imagine driving to within about 200' of a stone quarter section corner then walking down a gentle slope to the monument. The parking spot is at about 13,000 MSL. Then walking back to the truck stopping to catch your breath every 3rd step, huff huff huff, that'll make you feel like an old man.
Dave,
That was on Sept. 9, 2008 and it was only 12,400 MSL. While it might appear to have been a gentle slope it was nearly 20å¡. A great day to be up on Mt. Bross. Photos were taken prior to rehab.
Looking south
Looking west and up that gentle slope, huff, huff, huff!
paden cash, post: 427179, member: 20 wrote: Kinda reminds me of the area south and west of Leadville. Maybe in between Massive and Elbert around Champion.
This is a little north and east of Leadville, NW of Alma on Mt. Bross. Mt. Democrat is the distant peak in the last three photos.
The geology is similar.
aliquot, post: 427165, member: 2486 wrote: No reason to rehab a stone, set a pipe in its place and record what you have done.
For cases where there are no remaining original accessories and where the stone is no longer durable, I still rehab the stone to an upright position. I take that position as being the best available evidence of the corner position. I then remove the stone, set a modern monument at the rehabbed point and either bury the stone upside down or place it in the mound of stone. Using a laser plummet simplifies the process.
Some may not agree, but for cases where the corner is lost, but the original stone is found laying somewhere in the area, I usually remove the stone rock.
Given a choice between stainless steel and aluminum, I would prefer stainless steel every time, particularly for section corners and coastal environments.
Gene Kooper, post: 427254, member: 9850 wrote: For cases where there are no remaining original accessories and where the stone is no longer durable, I still rehab the stone to an upright position. I take that position as being the best available evidence of the corner position. I then remove the stone, set a modern monument at the rehabbed point and either bury the stone upside down or place it in the mound of stone. Using a laser plummet simplifies the process.
Some may not agree, but for cases where the corner is lost, but the original stone is found laying somewhere in the area, I usually remove the
stonerock.
That's the same as I would do.
Dave Karoly, post: 427263, member: 94 wrote: Given a choice between stainless steel and aluminum, I would prefer stainless steel every time, particularly for section corners and coastal environments.
Yes, stainless steel is better, but when you have to like in a few miles at 10000 feet they get heavy.
