How much actual deflection of legal liability does the engineers "waiver of liability" on the front page of every set of civil plans provide?
In the past I have worked 14 years total for two different civil engineering design firms. I know that they maintained errors and omissions insurance for all their engineers. I also know that they were defending themselves in lawsuits from time to time.
So to my question, if I correctly layout something, and it is built, off of a set of bad drawings, who holds the final legal liability in correcting it?
I ask this because of the huge volumes of trashy and shoddy civil drawings I have been working off of lately. As the economy crawls along it seems like the quality of the civil engineering declines right along with it.
> It was such an obvious mistake, you should have caught it before it got built, it's your fault.
-The Engineer
Keep checking the plans, throw it back at them and make them fix it, no matter how long it takes.
Maybe clients will start to realize how much a good set of plans is REALLY worth.
Are you licensed? What relationship do you have with the engineer? Are you employed by the engineer or working under contract?
If you are not licensed and working as an employee you have no liability.
If you are licensed and working under a contract for the engineer or contractor I guess it would depend on your contract. A "staking provided per plan" clause may limit your liability.
To my knowledge you are not allowed to make changes to a plan unless you are licensed engineer.
Of course that may vary from state to state.
Yep, and if they do make a change, make them state the change and sign it in red pen.
If you know it is wrong, you probably have a duty to report it and get it corrected, so failure to do so could incur some liability.
If there is a mistake but it isn't apparent while you are staking then I don't see how you could have liability.
Lawyers may see it differently.
Basically it is the Engineer who is liable, unless in the act of laying out you knew or should have known that there was an error in the plan.
In general, they are going to go after the guy with the big pockets. Being a party chief, I assume it wouldn't be you.
Haywire... I am an LSIT. I work for a medium sized construction company that currently has no RPLS on staff. I know that I am 100% safe from any liability so I am not worried about that. In the past four years no mistakes have slipped by me in the field but it's just a matter of time.
Ironically, some of the worst sets of drawings I am getting come from the two civil firms that I mentioned I used to work for.
Bill93... Yea, it's those little subtle mistakes that I am mainly concerned about. The one's that slip by all the other 20 people that reviewed the drawings before I got them... LOL
You are never 100% free from liabilty...99%?...maybe.
Have these plans been approved for construction?
Is there a p.e. stamp on the plans?
Yea Radar, I agree on throwing it back to the engineers for corrections but that puts me in a "catch 22" situation sometimes.
My company is slow enough that they are often desperate to get a crew onto a site and they want stakes come hell or high water.
Oh yeah, the plans are always P.E. stamped and always "approved for construction" stamped by the local building officials.
PC67, Son 😉
“So to my question, if I correctly layout something, and it is built, off of a set of bad drawings, who holds the final legal liability in correcting it?”
The individual, who, or the Firm, that prepared the plans you utilized for your layout. You are not responsible for errors in certified plans provided to you. Nor are you obligated to “check” the plans for errors. At least that is the legal opinion in Florida.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Been doin' this since almost the numbers in your name, 1969, if I screwed up then my 180' tower on a mountain tipped over with me on it....I diverge!!! Every plan you ever get from an Eng., Arch., and especially a CAD guru will have some fubar hidden for us to find!!! And that is the fun of our sport, follow in their footsteps, just don't leave in time for kickoff, or T time, or whatever other BS!!! Get the plans ahead of time and "LOOK HARD" at them before your boots are muddy, and of course the pans and dozers,with their machine control are waiting to "ROLL" !!! And OH YEAH, learn machine control soon !!!
Plan Busts
Sadly, this is happening more and more frequently these days.
The answer (as often) is, "it depends".
There are things you should be checking prior to putting stakes in the ground.
One example would be pipe inverts for gravity systems. If you stake out inverts with a back-flow and don't discover the problem......well, good luck.
The same with building layout. If you layout a building whose dimensions don't close, then you are going to be hard put to prove you don't bear at least some measure of liability.
No matter who's to blame, the first finger is always going to be pointed at the guy who laid it out.
Plan Busts
That is exactly right as per my prior response. And that type of secondary liability applies in all professions. For example, nurses are sued all the time for following doctor's orders when it is apparent they are incorrect. Most often this deals with improper medications or dosages. The same applies to surveyors following engineer's plans.
Plan Busts
I believe most nurses who administer drugs are licensed and have a professional responsibility just as licensed surveyors do.
My wife has prescription authority and is licensed. I believe it's the same in most if not all states.
Define bad drawings. Do you mean they didn't accurately represent what was needed, or they were mathematically incorrect?
If they don't close, it is our responsibility to identify the error, and RFI the questionable dimension immediately. We are the last line of defense in seeing it gets done correctly.
My first RFI's are usually confirmation of dimensions between different sets of plans, and redundant tie distances to verify overall dimensions. It is no accident most engineers will not give more than minimum, as it is their loophole if you don't ask.
If you ask, they gotta tell and the liability ends up back in their lap.
Liability/Schmiability ..... when the you-know-what hits the fan everyone will be pointing fingers at everyone else with one hand and trying to cover their rear ends with the other. When lawyers and courts get involved it can get expensive for even the least "liable". No one, including the engineer, wants the blame whether they made the mistake or not, and they will do everything they can to blame the surveyor. You better note every mistake and you better get clarification from the responsible party if you find an ambiguity.
Just my thoughts, Tom
The engineer.Period. Dont sweat it. I know your anxieties, probably have the bosses asking questions, maybe their lawyer. You might remove and replace but your guys will be doing it under protest. You will probably get a "phantom" cost code that all redo work will fall under. Everything in that cost code will not look like it on the surface, but will actually be marked up 20%. The attorneys will mediate, your guy will "offer" to settle, accepting, you guessed it, 20% of the liability. They will actually make money doing it both times and be happier than a pig in spit.
Do not let it keep you up at night or second guess anything that you did, if you know for a fact that you did it right. It will only add undue stress to an already stressful job.
Thanks for that input Roadhand... You know my position by heart don't you? LOL After years of working FOR engineering firms in their in house surveying departments it was a shock getting thrown to the wolves working for a construction company. I guess the reason they pay so much better is because of the mental stress. If it weren't for the great pay they would have a revolving door situation with their survey staff.
When I went to work for this company 4 years ago they had seven people in the surveying department. Since it got slow they have laid off and fired them all except for me. I'm the last man standing and the longest tenured layout guy they've ever had so I believe I am trusted.
