Not recording is the equivalent to Pincushion?
> > > It is absolutely common for people here to simply refer to a record of survey for a block breakdown. They may check the mons, but if they differ by a few hundredths, they don't reinvent the wheel.
> >
> > So, in other words, you work in an area where permanent survey markers have not been traditionally used? Imagine working in a metes and bounds state where boundaries were typically actually monumented and tell me why the original subdivision plat isn't sufficient.
>
> Of course "permanent survey markers are used". Why must we argue to the absurd. Of course, none are really permanent, none seem to be able to survive any sort of road project.
>
> But, in this area, the land being sold often predated the setting of the permanent monuments. A paper plat was made, lots were sold. Perhaps something permanent was set at the block corners (perhaps a stone later obliterated or buried under concrete), but the corners of the lots were marked with wooden stakes, sometimes after the sale.
I think what you're saying is that permanent markers were NOT typically set by the subdivider to mark the lot corners, that the lots were largely protracted creations. This is a much different situation than where permanent markers were set. In your protraction scheme, you are in effect filing corner records to supplement the subdivision plat by which the lots were sold.
HUGE CON
Is that "three shirt" or "T-shirt", Dave?
More likely wife-beater, I'd guess.
Anyway, what you say is true, I'm the nasty big-gubmit beercrat and I'm sweet as I can be, as you know.
Don
HUGE CON
We were in D.C. on a warm June day. The tour guide said, "this is nothing, you should come in July when it gets over 100 with high humidity, those are true three shirt days!" Meaning you have to change your shirt three times during the day.
HUGE CON
It sounds like your Professional Society needs to push through legislation to eliminate the red tape. Is that realistic in your neck of the woods?
HUGE CON
not at all likely.
CON -invasion of privacy issues
I used to think it was a good idea (Pro) as far as the surveyor controlling their work and making less competent surveyors step up to produce better plats to the standards of the state and their peers. Most plat recording was promulgated by tax assessors and really did not care about survey standards. Then the GIS bunch rode into town control of "surveys. Not good. The small numbers of unethical surveyors are still going to operate regardless of recording or not recording.
I am in a non-recording state but one's who laws are based in the civil law (Napoleonic code) that has a strong element in origin of recording documents. Surveys are recorded with boundary work. It is not mandatory but it is done. New subdivisions or boundary issues are recorded.
Yes, some surveyors may have records of the older surveyors but you can access them through having an amiable working relationship with your peers. Fortunately here, some of the old and more important survey records were donated to the clerk for recording.(Actually, there is a direct portal to his work archive). There has been one surveyor here thatches gruffly denied access to any of his records. Of course, his work is suspect at times. He has a revolving door that takes on new associates . A few years ago, I called him to give him a heads up that one of his associates had surveyed the wrong lot. About a week later, he called and thanked me and told me that I could have access to his records at any time that I wanted. [sarcasm]Whoop de Doo.[/sarcasm]
Another survey here will have a computer ready for me when I arrive to search his records looking for older surveys of his firm or past records that they have acquired. How many would let their competition into their office for such access? How is that for peer review?
So I have become CON through the years.
But one of the main reasons that I have against recording at his time is the invasion of privacy assure. Surprised no one else has mentioned invasion of privacy for the client.
Clerks and other governmental agencies are power hungry. Information is their fodder.
If Mr./Ms.John/Jane Q. Public orders and pays for a private survey of his domain, why should it become public knowledge. If one was to buy a nice piece of property at some auction or from some other avenue to ownership? Then pay for a survey afterward, why should it be recorded to divulge their assets. There is some basis to invasion of privacy protection in the constitution from various amendments. I think that the government cannot require surveyors to publish client’s info without their permission.
CON -invasion of privacy issues
The problem with 'privacy' is that a survey of my property impacts 2 other private owners and 2 public right of ways. The remote controlling corners effect hundreds more. I've surveyed where the fabric of the PLSS is in tatters and every survey goes in a drawer, not likely to seen by the other parties. As a young man I watched the stone at our northeast corner change character and location every time a suburban pulled over because of it.
As a former republican with libertarian tendencies I am all for privacy. When that impacts those around me I know they deserve rights and respect as well.
CON -invasion of privacy issues
EXACTLY RIGHT!!!!!
HUGE CON
> It sounds like your Professional Society needs to push through legislation to eliminate the red tape. Is that realistic in your neck of the woods?
Exactly like Rambleon said. Not at all likely. The planning folks love having the power they do. Do something to take away even a tiny bit of that power and they will fight tooth and nail to stop you.
What they don't seem to realize is that if I record a plat that violates the law, the board can revoke my license. I can lose my ability to earn a living.
If a planning official breaks the law what happens? Nothing. Not one thing. So why should they care about the law? They don't. That is the essence of the problem.
Larry P
HUGE CON
> If a planning official breaks the law what happens? Nothing. Not one thing. So why should they care about the law? They don't. That is the essence of the problem.
>
> Larry P
Well said. Fight the power.
CON -invasion of privacy issues
My suggestion would be to allow surveys to be kept private, but private surveys could only be used by the person who paid for them. If a survey were not recorded within x days of completion, other surveyors would be forbidden to consider them when making surveys. The surveys would be inadmissible in court. Title insurance companies would be forbidden from removing the survey exception in policies on the basis of an unrecorded survey. So the client could use it to build an improvement or for his own peace of mind, but that's all. If the neighbor claimed the new improvement encroached, the client wouldn't be able to introduce the survey in court to assert there was no encroachment.
Yes...I am a greedy SOB!!
Greetings Mr. Cow,
The following might explain why some surveyors favor being in a non-recording state. Florida is, and I like it that way. I have had experience working in a recording state, as some of my practice is also in Georgia, a recording state where everyone has access to boundary survey maps. But, for what I can get $1200 for doing in Florida, you might be lucky to get $350 for doing in Georgia. Think about all those recorded boundary surveys down at the court house. That is why I left Georgia for Florida. Yes, it was a selfish motive, but I always thought if I wanted to serve I would have been a Pastor. They make more money too.
Consider:
I operate in a rural county in Florida, where mine is the only surveying business the county has ever had. When coming here over 40 years ago I realized I would never get rich, however I would be close to family. For me that was good enough. Also, I was resolved to the fact I would never retire (I would simply never be able to amass the amount of money to be able to completely stop working) and would likely die as a working professional, BUT doing what I enjoy. And, that was more than good enough as I could possibly/hopefully have the life I had admired in that of Mr. H. O. Peters, Florida's first president of the state society of professional surveyors. I had glimpses into what I felt was the passion that inspired Mr. Peters even into an old age, as I would visit him during the evening hours at his home in the orange groves of Central Florida, while he put the finishing touches on another of his masterpiece maps. At the time, Mr. Peters was already 10 or 20 years past the age of most retiring men, but the excitement he exuded was catching to a much younger surveyor. I knew then that was something I desired.
At the beginning of my practice the hours to complete a survey were very long as I would have to run out entire (S)ections (think no platted subdivisions outside of the city limits) just to survey out an acre of land. Sometimes I would spend an entire week just to complete one of these small lots, though my cost to the client would only be equal to about 1 days rates. But, I was looking long-term. I knew, since Florida was a non-recording state, that if I could sustain this for a number of years I would eventually build up my records to the point I could live on them for the rest of my life. For a couple decades I have been experiencing that return. It was an investment. Today, I can complete a survey in 4 hours that may take others 8 to 16 hours. However, I try to charge the same as anyone else would charge due to the fact the surveys have the same value to the client.
Today, I have run out over 90% of all the Sections in my county, and I have in my records over 10,000 original surveys. They are mine. Also, since I have been using GPS for over 20 years I have been able to move almost every boundary into State Plane Coordinate position. And so, because of how hard I had to work to build up my records I am a stingy SOB! If anyone else wants a boundary survey map let them go and do the work to produce it. I am not about to start giving away what I had to struggle to build up. If others think soooo little of me for having that attitude get a life. The field (think of being outside in the open air) is always open to anyone, so at anytime IF any willing surveyor pulls up his/her britches and works long and hard, then he/she too will have the same records I do. I'm not stopping anyone from doing just that.
It was a business decision for me. Work hard young. Enjoy and benefit from the fruits of my labor in later years. Nobody is stopping you from doing the same either.
Yes...I am a greedy SOB!!
Georgia isn't technically a recording state. There is no mandatory recording law or rule. However, most plats are recorded in my area. Here in the Eastern part of the state where there are only metes and bounds (no Land Lots designed by the gov) I can't imagine trying to survey without having access to recorded plats. It would be impossible. Every tract is a different size and shape. No squares or section lines to guide you.
Yes...I am a greedy SOB!!
Stacy,
I meant recording vs non-recording as in...
Florida - No map book available for recording boundary surveys or subdivisions other than an official subdivision plat prepared to meet requirements of the Florida Plat act and which are approved by an official action/vote of the County Commission/or City Commission and signed off on by a long list of government officials. In Florida the recording book for recorded plats is called Plat Book No._
Georgia - Has a Map Book available to record boundary surveys, topo surveys, subdivisions, etc. A lot of boundary surveys find their way in there one way or the other.
(ubenhavin?)
CON -invasion of privacy issues
:good:
