Holy Cow, post: 366509, member: 50 wrote: All of which don't mean squat once the government is out of the picture.
Out in my neck of the woods, the picture is somewhat different.
Loyal
Jim Frame, post: 366213, member: 10 wrote: For 1/2 mile I ignore curvature. For anything longer I proportion using geographic coordinates.
Jim, do you publish plats, using rectangular coord systems, and showing these little kinks? Im thinking proportioning an EW township line.
Nate, it's not kinks,,,,,,it's curves, you are basically showing the chord:whistle:
an east west section line at my usual lat drops 2" at the midpoint, but the midpoint on a two mile line is 8",,,,,,,,I think or was it .8', dang, can't remember
So if you are using a grid all your east-west lines are chord bearings and chord distances, with a really big radius.
Retired PLS, post: 366367, member: 6573 wrote: I have a "Red Book" dated 1956 that I would sell if the price was right. Make me a offer.
Please send me an email. At rmoore@mapsvcs.com and we will see what we can do. Do you have any photos?
Nate The Surveyor, post: 366513, member: 291 wrote: Jim, do you publish plats, using rectangular coord systems, and showing these little kinks?
I had to look, the last time I did that was in 2003. It was a double-proportioned section corner, but I only had to go a mile west and half a mile east for acceptable corners. (I had to go 2 miles north, but curvature wouldn't matter much in that case.) I showed a straight-line tie to the section corner to the west.
On a long E-W proportion it wouldn't make sense to show intermediate chord bearings, unless you're also double-proportioning the intermediate section corners.
On the 2-mile tie to the north I indicated the intermediate section corners on the plat. That was a mistake, now that you got me thinking about it. Another skeleton for the closet...
I'm retracing the north boundary of Jackson Demostration State Forest...I'm following Knute Nelson's R/S showin 3 sections (19, 20, 21) and he has 4 ties to the north & south. No curves, just either recovering corners or double proportioning. His concrete monuments are out there. Then Jim Conkright surveyed 4 sections to the east, no curves, unfortunately the R/S didn't get filed before he died. There are lots of Conkrght monuments out there too. Fortunately Conkright left detailed maps and files behind.
I've noticed an absence of comments from our Colonial States brethren and sistren.
Larry Scott, post: 366305, member: 8766 wrote: The instructions are clear. The township is laid first. And center sections are originally set on straight line last connecting the standard corners. So for center section, it's not a matter of ignoring latitudinal arc, but instructed to run 'straight line connecting' the standard corners. Reestablishing a lost corner have rules too. Lost or obliterated corners:
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ak/aktest/cadastral.Par.86851.File.dat/lost_oblit.pdf
INTERIOR CORNERS
10. A lost interior corner of four sections will be restored by double proportionate measurement.When working with sections the instructions are complicated, but there is hierarchy and priority. Range lines, township lines, then sections, and the west and north sections suffer the deficiency.
Working on a project in section land, read the instructions.
1-30. The basic provisions require that the public lands ÛÏshall be divided by north and south lines run accord- ing to the true meridian, and by others crossing them at right angles, so as to form townships six miles square;Û that ÛÏthe townships shall be subdivided into sections, containing as nearly as may be, six hundred and forty acres each;Û and that ÛÏthe excess or de ciency shall be specially noted, and added to or deducted from the western and northern ranges of sections or half-sections in such townships, according as the error may be in run- ning the lines from east to west, or from south to north.Û The system of rectangular surveys ts the basic require- ments to the curved surface of the earth.In this rectangular plan, the township boundaries are intended to be due north and south or due east and west.
The boundaries running north and south are termed ÛÏrange lines.Û The boundaries running east and west are termed ÛÏtownship lines.Û In this general plan, all the lines are rhumb lines and cross each meridian at a con- stant angle.
The range lines are great circles of the earth that, if extended, would converge and intersect at the North Pole. This convergency becomes apparent in the mea- surement of the township lines. The convergency is taken up at intervals by the running of standard paral- lels, on which the measurements are again made full. On the standard parallels, rst termed ÛÏcorrection lines,Û there are offsets in the range lines and two sets of corners, standard corners for the lines to the north and closing corners for lines to the south. The usual inter- val between the standard parallels is 24 miles, but there were many exceptions in the older surveys.
To make the sections represent ÛÏsquare milesÛ as nearly as may be, the meridional lines are run from south to north and parallel to the east boundary of the township for a distance of 5 miles from the south boundary. These are run and monumented as true lines. The remaining section lines are all run by random and true between the established section corners. This produces the rectangu- lar sections, 25 of which contain 640 acres each, within allowable limits. The sections along the north and west boundaries are subdivided on a plan for certain lottings to absorb the convergency and the excess or de ciency in the measurements. These sections provide a maxi- mum number of aliquot parts (160-, 80-, and 40-acre units) or regular subdivisions of a section, the remainder being shown as lots for which the contents are computed according to the eld measurements.
.... Rules of Survey. The public lands shall be divided by north and south lines run according to the true meridian, and by others crossing them at right angles, so as to form townships of six miles square, unless where the line of an Indian reservation, or of tracts of land sur- veyed or patented prior to May 18, 1796, or the course of navigable rivers, may render this im- practicable; and in that case this rule must be departed from no further than such particular circumstances require.
Third. That quarter-quarter-section corners not established in the process of the original survey shall be placed on the line connecting the section and quarter-section corners, and mid- way between them, except on the last half mile of section lines closing on the north and west boundaries of the township, or on other lines between fractional or irregular sections.
Fourth. That the center lines of a regular section are to be straight, running from the quarter-section corner on one boundary of the section to the corresponding corner on the op- posite section line.
http://www.cfeds.org/docs/sml/ManualOfSurveyingInstructions2009_060414.pdf
Larry - where did you obtain the Manual in this format?
Loyal, post: 366511, member: 228 wrote: Out in my neck of the woods, the picture is somewhat different.
Loyal
Loyal, I think,,,well actually I know that map is a little lacking in red in some areas,,,,,,,
Looks like Texas has more of the infestation than I ever realized,,,,how did that happen?
MightyMoe, post: 367209, member: 700 wrote: Loyal, I think,,,well actually I know that map is a little lacking in red in some areas,,,,,,,
Looks like Texas has more of the infestation than I ever realized,,,,how did that happen?
[sarcasm]Perhaps Texas was "Asleep at the Wheel"?[/sarcasm]
It is interesting to see - the Feds have been at war with Texas from the beginning, but I too didn't realize it was this bad...
The legend refers to subsurface interest, so mineral rights?
Warren Smith, post: 367220, member: 9900 wrote: The legend refers to subsurface interest, so mineral rights?
That map shows both surface and subsurface, but I know it's incorrect, it's missing lots of federal interest lands, and it does seem to show reservation lands as federal-I think that's what I see-so I wouldn't necessarily consider that correct either.
But as you can see Loyal's point is valid, it's difficult to set any corner in the west without federal interest involved.
MightyMoe, post: 367232, member: 700 wrote: That map shows both surface and subsurface, but I know it's incorrect, it's missing lots of federal interest lands, and it does seem to show reservation lands as federal-I think that's what I see-so I wouldn't necessarily consider that correct either.
But as you can see Loyal's point is valid, it's difficult to set any corner in the west without federal interest involved.
According to this link:
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/About_BLM/subsurface.print.html
Wyoming has ~11.6 million acres of "split estate" (private/state surface, federal minerals), and Montana has ~11.7 million acres of "split estate." That's a LOT!
I bump into the "split estate" stuff all the time, and too many folks (even surveyors) appear to be unaware of the potential issues that this Imperial Entanglement can involve.
caveat emptor.
Loyal
Loyal, post: 367270, member: 228 wrote: According to this link:
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/About_BLM/subsurface.print.html
Wyoming has ~11.6 million acres of "split estate" (private/state surface, federal minerals), and Montana has ~11.7 million acres of "split estate." That's a LOT!
I bump into the "split estate" stuff all the time, and too many folks (even surveyors) appear to be unaware of the potential issues that this Imperial Entanglement can involve.
caveat emptor.
Loyal
The split estate issue has caused lots of issues,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's difficult to even imagine all the implications from a surveying standpoint.
The MT and OG plats are the first thing I look at anymore it seems like.
But be careful, there are errors on those, haven't found many, but it does happen:-(
Don't forget the BLM pamphlet "Restoration of Lost or Obliterated Corners & Subdivision of Sections - a guide for surveyors".
It speaks of general rules followed by BLM:
"Fourth: That the center lines of a section are to be straight, running from the quarter-section corner on one boundary to the corresponding corner on the opposite boundary."
Keith can probably weigh in on how different districts apply this rule ...
Warren Smith, post: 367295, member: 9900 wrote: Don't forget the BLM pamphlet "Restoration of Lost or Obliterated Corners & Subdivision of Sections - a guide for surveyors".
It speaks of general rules followed by BLM:
"Fourth: That the center lines of a section are to be straight, running from the quarter-section corner on one boundary to the corresponding corner on the opposite boundary."
Keith can probably weigh in on how different districts apply this rule ...
Your solar compass will make a curved straight line when running east or west or just about any bearing not geodetic north. 😀
So if the County Surveyor set the center quarter section corner in 1890 in "contemplation of law," does that establish the boundary of the Federal mineral estate?
Dave Karoly, post: 367297, member: 94 wrote: So if the County Surveyor set the center quarter section corner in 1890 in "contemplation of law," does that establish the boundary of the Federal mineral estate?
Sure!
So long as the Local/Current/Future BLM Surveyors "accept" IT!
:angel:
Dave Karoly, post: 367297, member: 94 wrote: So if the County Surveyor set the center quarter section corner in 1890 in "contemplation of law," does that establish the boundary of the Federal mineral estate?
That would be like running your truck into a unicorn,,,,,,,,,I've never, never, never, never, ever seen them accept an interior corner, not one that I know of in all the new powder river basin resurveys.
Context is important.
