Ownership of Surveying Firms

In N.C. yes , if they do not have surveyor as part owner then they are in violation .

pretty easy, they have a licensed staff member in that state and create a corporation to do business in that state. Several of the firms you mentioned take that approach.

Tommy
It is not a notion but corporate law in many states. In NJ they require that firms posses a Certifcate of Authorization to be is business.
If I remembver corectly a founding officer in the company must posses either a PLS or PE to work in those fields. Or they acquire a firm with such rights already in place.
This can vary greatly from state to state and I believe that NY has a more restrictive claue in theie business laws.
I worked for a firm that had a NJ & NY office but could not perform "boundary dependent work" only engineering related survey in NY.
It sure smells like restriction of trade to me.

> It sure smells like restriction of trade to me.

This discussion has occurred many times before on this and the old message boards. Some protest that the state can't do that. They do it. It is the law. Deal with it.

The justification for such laws is that the PLS should not be in a position where business decisions are made for them that over ride their professional judgment. With at least 2/3rds of the company being owned by licensees the hope is that professional decisions will trump business decisions.

Larry P

Section V
Design Professional Corporations (D.P.C.)

Effective January 1, 2012, Section 1503 of the Business Corporation Law was amended to permit the incorporation of design professional service corporations (engineering, architecture, landscape architecture, land surveying, or any combination thereof) first organized on or after 1/1/2012, in which non-professionals may own less than 25 percent of the shares and may constitute less than 25 percent of director and officer positions. The shareholders of a design professional corporation may include employee stock ownership plans (ESOP) and employees of the corporation who are not licensed as design professionals, provided that:

Greater than 75% of the outstanding shares of stock of the corporation are owned by design professionals;

An ESOP, either in part or in its entirety, may not constitute part of the greater than 75% owned by design professionals;

Greater than 75% of the directors are and were design professionals;

Greater than 75% of the of the officers are and were design professionals;

The president, the chairperson of the board of directors and the chief executive officer or officers are and were design professionals; and

The single largest shareholder is and was either a design professional or an ESOP with greater than 75% of the plan’s voting trustees being design professionals and greater than 75% of the plan’s committee member’s being design professionals.

> > It sure smells like restriction of trade to me.
>
>
> This discussion has occurred many times before on this and the old message boards. Some protest that the state can't do that. They do it. It is the law. Deal with it.
>
> The justification for such laws is that the PLS should not be in a position where business decisions are made for them that over ride their professional judgment. With at least 2/3rds of the company being owned by licensees the hope is that professional decisions will trump business decisions.
>
> Larry P

:good: :good:

Excellent points Larry
I don't see how it can be restraint of trade if you need a license to offer these services.

Ralph

In New York, a professional corporation can not offer professional services unless shareholders are licensed in the design profession being offered. Corporations also have to have a certificate of authorization to provide land surveying services. Partnerships do not have to have a certificate of authorization.

If a firm has...as an example... a pe and a ls as shareholders, they can offer engineering and land surveying services. If either of them leave the firm, then they can no longer offer that particular service.

> I keep seeing this notion thrown around that in certain states, a RLS must own a certain percentage of the company stock, or make up a certain percentage of the board of directors.
>
> This is my question. How do Atkins, URS, AECOM, Parsons, AMEC, etc.... comply with this requirement?

Arizona and Kansas CA(Certificate of Authorization) rules require a registered person of each discipline practiced be either an owner or officer or board member, depending on the precise business model used

I.E., a LLC offering Surveying, Engineering & architecture must have one of each as officers of the corporation, regardless of any others who are employed by the company/corporation.B-)

> In New York, a professional corporation can not offer professional services unless shareholders are licensed in the design profession being offered. Corporations also have to have a certificate of authorization to provide land surveying services. Partnerships do not have to have a certificate of authorization.
>
> If a firm has...as an example... a pe and a ls as shareholders, they can offer engineering and land surveying services. If either of them leave the firm, then they can no longer offer that particular service.

Rick,
The way I read it, the majority shareholder must be a NYLS, so Mr. Rubberstamp down the block better start thinking how he's going to circumvent this one. Because although he's been cleared by Don Fanucci, he still has to answer to the State Attorney General. Moreover, how can you claim MBE, DBA or WBE status as a Surveying Company if you're not authorized to offer these services? To my knowledge you need a License to get a C of A or you're one of the Larger National Companies.

Ralph

As to the original question, many of the firms mentioned may be grandfathered in, having been formed before the current corporation laws were put into effect.

In NY, it was fashionable to buy up ANY corporation that had been formed before 1935 or so, and use that to create your business, without pesky regulatory rules about licenses and certifcates of authorization.

Plans stamped by old-line firms, such as Andrews and Clark, Baldwin and Corneilius and others used a COMPANY STAMP, not a person's stamp. If I remember correctly, Andrews and Clark had license number 37.

I believe in many states, most of the loopholes have since been closed.

I'm glad enough to know that we aren't thought of as professional enough to know how to make surveying decisions independent of business decisions.

I wonder how many other professions have this requirement.

In Texas the only requirement is that the firm have a RPLS employed full time at that location. There are several Land Surveying firms that are owned by non-surveyors operating in Texas.

Tommy don't you have it backwards? The intent is to have the majority of the firm owned by professionals, so professional decisions are made and followed, not decisions made and enforced by a non licensed majority owner. A true professional should not be insulted by this requirement, after all it protects both him and the clients.
jud

I think it was New Jersey where they fined a surveyor for
including the word 'associate' in the company name.
Pretty dum!!

In Florida to offer surveying services to the public, one or more of the principal officers of a corporation or one or more partners of a partnership and all personnel of a corporation or partnership who act in its behalf as surveyors and mappers are required to be licensed.

A corporation or partnership must also have a certificate of authorization, we call it an LB number, from the Board which is like a "company" license. All of your drawings must show your LB number and all of your rod caps or stamped disks must also show the LB number.

I think realtors, GIS people and attorneys

[sarcasm]should own all surveying companies. Then everyone would get quick and cheap surveys.[/sarcasm]

This used to come up here in Texas, but it is a moot point here. [sarcasm]The great thing about surveying is that we get paid no matter what our final resolutions are.[/sarcasm]

Jeez, this is getting funnier and funnier.

Yes, I believe some companies are breaking the law in Michigan. But as long as the work is being signed and sealed by a Licensed Professional, I do not see what it matters. We all need to have good morals and ethics, whether we are an owner or not. Besides, we are having a hard enough time getting the State and/or prosecutors to do anything about un-licensed individuals doing surveying. That one bothers me.

MICHIGAN OCCUPATIONAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 299 of 1980

(4) A firm shall employ a person in responsible charge in the field of services offered at each place of business in this state where services are offered by the firm, except at a field office which provides only a review of construction.

Don't think that was New Jersey. There are plenty of firms in this state with associates in the name.

It's my understanding in New Jersey if you are incorporated as a Professional Corporation (PA or PC), as I am, the shareholders must be licensed in the profession you are practicing. If you are incorporated as a regular corporation you must file a Certificate of Authorization stating who is the Professional in charge. I do not know how LLC's are handled.

> Tommy don't you have it backwards? The intent is to have the majority of the firm owned by professionals, so professional decisions are made and followed, not decisions made and enforced by a non licensed majority owner. A true professional should not be insulted by this requirement, after all it protects both him and the clients.
> jud

The implication is that professional decisions cannot be made unless the professional owns stock in the company. Frankly, I think that is insulting.