That sounds like a foolish way of doing things, then.
Maybe you should suggest some changes to that.
Never really bothered me,as I was getting paid for it...
Keep plowing...
(Where's the beer mug icon)
🙂
There definitely is differences between Preliminary plats and Final Plats and the Regulations and to what monumentation is acceptable.
I was assuming that Jim was talking about a Final Plat.
"That sounds like a foolish way of doing things, then."
Really?! Following the law and hundreds of years of court decisions is foolish? Not in my world...
Many of you seem to forget that a MAP or PLAT is and always has been viewed by the court as a RECORD OF WHAT WAS DONE IN THE FIELD. That means that the monuments are set first, then the map is prepared documenting that work. Many of you have changed subdivision platting into a process of preparing a PLAN, in which the paper document is prepared first, then the field work is performed. If you wind up in court in an issue involving this, I will almost guarantee that the court will say that the plat is to be a record of work performed. Its one reason that monuments have a higher order of importance than written records.
I have platted many subdivisions, and have never recorded a plat prior to setting the monuments. Its the law here, and I see no reason not to follow it.
No, not saying that following the law is foolish. Just think that a law that requires setting monuments prior to construction, that most likely will be destroyed during construction, seems like a foolish law.
I don't know AZ, but I'm used to heavy excavation, grading, and drainage ditches, etc. No one would be setting monuments prior to construction around here.
What do you guys do, just lay pavement over existing ground out there?
In my immediate area, planning commissions require roads and improvements (sewer,water,etc) to be in before a final plat is filed. The centerline of the road is marked for each lot line, pc, pt, intersection, and the curb is notched along each lot line. Front pins are generally not put in because of imminent grading dangers with later sidewalk and yard work, but the location can be witnessed by the road monumentation. Rear pins must be set and occasionally survive. There is no vehicle in place to re-monument after home construction is complete. On new subdivisions, I generally find original monuments (excluding centerline marks) about 15% of the time.
In areas that allow final plats to be recorded before improvements are in, more often than not, I find that original monuments were never set. This quandary with the market crash and unfinished subdivisions hasn't significantly changed the way things are.
Quite the opposite actually.
There's either a ton of fill being dumped in to raise the grade for drainage,or mass tonnage of excavation. Definately exceptions to this but not just paving over existing grade.
In large rural parcels ,the grade generally will be left undisturbed obviously,just as anywhere.In fact,in many areas,existing grounds have to preserved and not disturbed,as there also laws regarding that too.Vegetation can play into factor also.
The Statutes in Ontario,Canada are the same as the monumentation must be completed prior to recording.It has no bearing on whether the monuments will be destroyed during construction or not.They physically have to be in the ground.
And we are not talking small rebar here either.1 in 4 monuments have to be a SIB,a 4' x 1" square bar in many cases.They are also used at every bend.There are alternatives if one cannot be set,but for the most part this is what you will find.
For some it does not seem to make sense,but in the real world it makes perfect sense.
"What do you guys do, just lay pavement over existing ground out there?"
In the more urban large communities the entire area (sometimes an entire section or more) is completely graded prior to construction. In smaller and more rural communities it is just the opposite. Some cities requires extremely detailed topographical surveys and only allow disturbance of 20% of the parcel area. Some areas are flat as a pancake, some have 50% or more slopes. Huge variety...
Few of the governments ever inspect survey monumentation, and even fewer enforce even their own rules and codes, much less State statutes.
Jim, I feel for you...
But, this is not a new thing.
Now is the time to get everybody on the bandwagon and create a delayed monumentation scheme and State legislation to define it.
You have tons of examples to work with from other States, most are rather successful.
Peter:
In the area where I work it is a relatively new thing. Most of us conducted our work in conformance with the Statutes and Board Rules. Subdivisions were monumented prior to plat recordation. Had we all kept adhering to the laws and rules this situation would not exist. They worked for a long time, they still work for me, and I'm not sure what is so difficult about following them...
Cost to the owner, efficient scheduling and intelligent use of available labor is why. Simple as that. Surveyors can change the statutes or wait for developers to demand change, if they reach that point, surveyors will be considered the root of the problem instead of being part of the solution.
jud
:good: :good: :good:
Possibly, although all the developers are gone, and we have been told that the cost to change the existing Statutes would be at least $50,000...