This seems to be a common problem around here, mostly along the many lakes we have in our area. The title to these old lots were given per a old filed or unfiled subdivision map. These subdivided lot lines were lost or never used and the area has adopted the long standing occupied lines. Many of these occupied lines have boundary markers and many of those were set by a surveyor. Some have a revised deed that uses the occupied lines, but references them as the original subdivided lot line. Some were revised with boundary agreements, but most were not.
Well, I have another one that just came in this week and this is an open issue and not one that I uncovered. It appears follow the senario I described above.
The best solution would be to get all land owners to agree to a recut of the lots to fit the long standing occupation, but getting all landowners on board is always an issue.
I'm pretty sure that the long standing occupation would hold up in court, but the time and money involved in that is the last option I would recomend in most cases.
How do you folks handle this when it comes up in your area?
Any other comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Forrest
> The best solution would be to get all land owners to agree to a recut of the lots to fit the long standing occupation, but getting all landowners on board is always an issue.
>
Not sure about the specific laws in NY, but many states have methods for fixing multiple boundaries on multiple parcels in one shot. Some are done at the local county surveyor level, some are done at the local town council (or appropriate jurisdiction) level, some are done at the court level through a petition process. All have a good potential of avoiding a trial and all require the services of the surveyor to assist in the task. Make sure you comb your statutes for any potential method.
> I'm pretty sure that the long standing occupation would hold up in court, but the time and money involved in that is the last option I would recommend in most cases.
>
If there isn't any established method, then you'll likely handle the situation in one of two ways: either get all the owners together and work out the solution counting on 100% landowner cooperation, or resolve it one boundary at a time. If you can't get the 100%, then try for 80%; there will be a few boundaries left unresolved. That thought usually encourages the others to get involved.
> How do you folks handle this when it comes up in your area?
>
I live in a state that doesn't have any current laws allowing a mass resolution. The easiest thing I can do is to start rounding up the neighbors, and working them together (or separately) to understand their individual issues. Some will know, some won't. Hopefully, you can work through a neighborhood committee of some sort who can assist in the coordination of the meetings, etc. It's not an easy proposition, but it can be done. I've managed it before.
> Any other comments would be appreciated.
>
Learn techniques used to hold a "facilitative" meeting. They work very well. Hold a neighborhood meeting with donuts, coffee and juice. Give them time to mingle together before and after the meeting. That's where most of the agreements start to come together; have a social time. You need the group to work together to solve a common problem they all share. When they realize it, you're almost there.
I'd also suggest getting mediation training. It's a horrible experience that will give you the tools you need to foster agreements between parties. The skills you learn will be invaluable in many more ways that just this application.
JBS
Excellent advice from JBS, though I'm reminded that awhile back, when all concerned refused to settle a really stupid boundary dispute, my client's attorney told me "if people were rational I'd be out of business." After many years of survey work, a persistent enigma for me is the dogged resistance to BLA's of those who would benefit from them. But donuts and coffee are definitely a start.
THANKS - JBS
I'm working with lawyers on this one and that is great advice I can offer to them to help with the issue.
To my knowledge after over 25 years of surveying in NY I never heard of any mass resolution, I will check into it.
Thanks again
One Attorney told me he advises his clients to FIRST:
Go next door with a bottle of wine and sit down with your neighbor and be friends trying to resolve a potential issue.
Do this before you have Attorneys write letters. What happens is the Attorney letter shows up at the neighbor's house and naturally they take it to their Attorney to draft a response. He says once the Attorneys get involved then they tell their clients not to talk to the other party and pretty soon everyone is paying lots of money to Attorneys to do their communicating for them.
My experience, though, is most people don't seek professional help until the fued is well under way and then it is very difficult to get people to back off and come to some sort of agreement. OK maybe someone calls a land surveyor the week before the foundation contractor shows up but that is way too little time to resolve these sorts of issues, generally.
Dave
That's good advice.
Check your state laws carefully and don't rely on a lawyers opinion.
In Wisc, the law dealing with corrections of more than a few lots at once is in the section dealing with municipality tax assessors and is titled the Assessor's Plat Law, ss70.27.
The most important first step is a search of your state laws dealing with real property actions and municipality authority, then your state's alternate dispute resolution statutes. Once you have a good grounding in basic legal principles regarding land ownership and your state laws, check Nolo Press (nolo.com) for materials on mediation. Be careful dealing with arbitration, stick with mediation.
Richard Schaut
