lots of different names for them...simply a sketch of usually a residence with more disclaimers than dimensions. I would like to see our State disallow these completely in favor of a honest-to-God Property Survey.
Here's what our Oklahoma Minimum Standards allow in this area:
"Mortgage Inspection Report. A Professional Land Surveyor may, based upon their general knowledge of land boundaries and monuments in a given area, prepare a Mortgage Inspection Report for the use of a specific client. Such report shall be prominently labeled ‘Mortgage Inspection Report’ and shall not be designated as or construed as being a Land or Boundary Survey, and the statement furnished on the certificate shall be similar to the following form:
MORTGAGE INSPECTION REPORT
‘This Mortgage Inspection Report was prepared for …(individual or firm)…. It is not a land or boundary survey plat, and it is not to be relied upon for the establishment of fence, building or other future improvement lines. The accompanying sketch is a true representation of the conditions that were found at the time of the inspection, and the linear and angular values shown on the sketch, if any, are based on record or deed information and have not been verified unless noted.’"
I'm sure the Real Estate Industry loves these. At closing, they call them "surveys" and charge $300 (I'm sure the surveyor got half or less of that). I can't count the number of times a client or adjoiner has waved one these and insisted I was wrong. I would like to see them go the way of the dip needle.
Is there any other States that have gotten rid of these?
What is/was the problem with a dip needle?
Okay Paden, let's cut off the surveyor from another service and let some other group do them-maybe the real-estate agents will do them. Heck, we surveyors have so much work we can do with out them.
People can wave them in your face all they want. All you have to do is point out the notations on the sketch. In Maine they are called "Mortgage Loan Inspections" and clearly state that they are not land surveys.
Their accuracy left a lot to be desired.
> Is there any other States that have gotten rid of these?
Texas did quite a while ago. There is a downside to abolishing the survey-looking things that don't replace missing monuments as a boundary survey would. It is that the market for quick'n'cheap residential surveys will continue unabated and with the result that probably more than 75% of the residential surveys I see have some significant defect in them. At least the mortgage loan inspections didn't leave new boundary markers.
No such thing in Florida, but like Kent said, I also see PLENTY of terrible boundary surveys.
Texas did quite a while ago
Kent: How did Texas do that? Did the the BOR say that surveyors can't perform them? Frankly, I can't imagine how an outright ban could be constitutional if fully challenged in court. MLIs are a service for banks. They could almost be as easily performed by an appraiser or others.
Apparently my Iowa Code Online link isn't available today (neither is the state's website). Otherwise, I would copy & paste Iowa Code Section 542B.35 here.
Essentially, it says that a "real property inspection report" is NOT a property survey and anyone preparing them CANNOT claim to be a land surveyor. Further there is some disclosure language that needs to be put on the face of the report stating its not a survey and boundaries are approximate only.
Personally, I don't give a flip whether they continue to exist or not, but I do believe that the public needs to be made more aware of what these things are not. Perhaps a law stating that banks or whoever is requesting these things provide the buyer/homeowner with information about them.
I blogged about "Sally from Ohio" back in January 2009. Sally had a problem between her "mortgage survey" and her neighbors boundary survey.
Actually..........
Mortgage loan Inspections will be discontinued by the banks because their own studies have shown that they can insure against the types of things that the inspections find more cheaply than paying for an inspection.
Now, what does that say about more accurate and expensive land surveys?
Standards of Practice
>How did Texas do that? Did the the BOR say that surveyors can't perform them?
The BOR adopted rules about the monumentation of boundaries and what work had to be undertaken in the performance of a survey. Since a Mortgage Loan Inspection represents a surveyor's opinion about the locations of parcel boundaries, it falls within the definition of professsional land surveying.
It should be obvious that the delineation of parcel boundaries is an integral part of the Mortgage Loan Inspection. That is what makes it a survey regardless of the tricky disclaimers.
The information 'expected' by the title insurer/lender is defined by the two paragraphs after the subheading 'Background' in the July 2007 ALTA/ACSM Accuracy standards:
The lines and corners on any property survey have uncertainty in location which is the result of (1) availability and condition of reference monuments, (2) occupation or possession lines as they may differ from record lines, (3) clarity or ambiguity of the record descriptions or plats of the surveyed tracts and its adjoiners and (4) Relative Positional Accuracy.
The first three sources of uncertainty must be weighed as evidence in the determination of where, in the professional surveyor's opinion, the boundary lines and corners should be placed.
If there is no statement pointing out inaccuraciesd in the record description, the presumption is that it is sufficiently accurate.
Therefore, no matter what 'it' is called; deed plot/driveby/educated guess or whatever, you are still on the hook where it is cheaper to settle out of court if anything 'comes up' so that you do not admit any guilt.
Competent surveyors subsidize this crap by paying higher E&O premiums.
Richard Schaut
Standards of Practice
Well okay. I guess it is just another example of that ridged Southern-Texas way of thinking. 🙂
Standards of Practice
> Well okay. I guess it is just another example of that ridged Southern-Texas way of thinking.
Hey, don't feel so bad. At least Maine did away with the pocket compass surveys. :>
The information 'expected' by the title insurer/lender is defined by the two paragraphs after the subheading 'Background' in the July 2007 ALTA/ACSM Accuracy standards:
Richard, what you quoted is irrelevant. This service has nothing to do with ALTA-ASCM. It is all about State rules and regulations and a contract between a lender and a provider.
That's a good point and one I hadn't given much consideration. I hate to have to agree with a dang Liberal. OOPS! Have to move this to P&R now. 🙂
was responding to an earlier point made by Kent. don't know how I got attached to the wrong comment. user error, I'm sure. shoulda used a quote.
Wrong again merlin.
You do not 'set the standard' nor choose 'what IT means'.
A nationally recognized standard, bearing the imprimatur of both the ALTA and the ACSM is acceptable in any court and you have to prove it doesn't apply to what you did.
Check with the risk assesment office of your E&O insurer.
Richard Schaut
I disagree. The Standard is clearly set by the State in my case. MLIs are noted as a legitimate service and the State, through the BOR, has set standards for the service which are accepted by all parties to the contract.
For the record, ASCM standards have no legal standing in the matter. I would also argue, but I won't, that there is no prohibition in any ASCM standards relevant to MLIs. MLIs have nothing to with land titles. They deal with doing a visual inspection of the property for the lender and nothing more.
Merlin, I agree
The standards we meet are set by our State Boards and not the industry.
Many times industry wants a lesser product than what our standards require.
My experience with title companies is that in the long run they want a proper survey to avoid any future problems. They have a difficult time understanding that a survey from decades ago cannot always be represented the same today.
Dealing with banks has been different. If banks could get their way, the banks would measure everything with their tape.
The only way I am giving a banker his preferred rates is when that banker rewards me preferred rates on my meager savings.
Recheck your state specs, nothing in them specifys that you cannot determine the error in the record description.
The ALTA/ACSM standards are an acceptable national standard and you cannot refuse to allow an attorney to have them entered into any court proceedings. You are allowed to try to prove that they don't apply to your work. Good luck!
Richard Schaut
