Machine Control & the Land Surveyor: If not land surveyors,

I am not sure who is the entity that would be granting permission here. I would say that whoever can cut the mustard should be able to do it, it is just another tool after all and as much as I love my survey brothers and sisters I have certainly met a few that I would not trust within 10 feet of setting up such a system.

In NC, the Board has determined only licensed Engineers and Surveyors are allowed to create 3D models for machine control(but enforcing that is another issue).

Surveyors ONLY!!!! How are you going to set it up Thad??? ...off the boundary???? Your engineer's license does NOT cover you there even if you are the grand poobah of modeling.

There is a difference in doing something and doing it well. Any dipsh@#t with a computer is a self proclaimed "GIS professional" and the same goes for machine control... every dipsh@#t with a computer is a pro. VERY FEW states have addressed the issue, but persons not licensed DO NOT have to play by those licensing boards rules. Furthermore the licensing boards have little or NO authority to stop persons from offering or performing model creation, and no licensing boards police unlicensed activity.

>
> Construction Surveyors (licensed and unlicensed)?

BTW, every Surveyor has a license, that is what makes you a Surveyor and not a draftsman, instrument man, chain man, or an "engineer."

I do not think it should be regulated. If you have the know how go for it. Who you should choose to build your model is another matter depending on the "grade" of model that fits your need.

In theory, the license board could prevent consultants from selling this as a contract service to an outside party. In practice, I think it will be difficult to prevent unlicensed freelancers from doing it. How are you going to catch them? If a Construction Contractor used a licensed individual which did a poor or incompetent job then the Contractor could complain to the State board but Contractors may not care to do that unless the Consultant has insurance which could be tapped into for damage recovery.

I don't think there is any legal way in current law to prevent Contractors from using their own unlicensed employees from doing this work.

Equipment Dealers could probably be prosecuted for unlicensed practice at least in California but I bet they are generally better financed than whoever might be complaining. In legal matters money talks and something else walks.

I look at the boundary as being a very different duck than machine control and have a hard time envisioning a project big enough to warrant machine control that was not first surveyed.

How about if the contractor had a proper survey done and had a LS qualified to do so set out stable geodetic control, would you then release the task of setting up machine control to other non-licensed individuals?

Anybody should be allowed to do this, as long as they are willing to assume the risks and liabilities associated with it. That's why they invented insurance. Now whether their credentials allow them to be insured is another question.

The better question would be, who is the most qualified? In my opinion, a seasoned Field Engineer who has taken these types of layouts manually from start to finish various times, is the person best able to handle this. Somebody who understands how Operators, Laborers and Supers in the field think. Somebody who has taken a project from the clearing and grubbing stage to substantial completion stage. Not someone who claims to have topoed, paved, geodetic'd and tilted, those individuals when confronted with something like this should run in the other direction as fast as they can.
I don't think that this is so much about cad skills as it is about critical thinking and generating something that's easy to use and understand. Understanding build-abilty and being able to question what doesn't appear right and having the experience to articulate why. Oversight on the part of the model builder can be dangerous, so I think it's imperative that the person building the model understand how to read and interpret design drawings and prepare to launch an effective RFI campaign. I have yet to read about any precedent setting cases where the responsibilities for an F-up are clearly defined. Is the design faulty? Should the model builder have caught it? etc...

All those judgement calls only come from having been in the trenches, dealing with poor design drawings and making things fit which otherwise wouldn't.
Not by greasing Don Fanucci.

Ralph

"Surveyors ONLY!!!! How are you going to set it up Thad??? ...off the boundary???? Your engineer's license does NOT cover you there even if you are the grand poobah of modeling."

By the time it gets to me (construction) the site has already been surveyed and mapped. It is all shown on the site plan/survey plan. BTW, the contractors will have the surveyors mark control points (usually 5 minimum, NEZ) to be used in the site calibration to get everything lined up together. I haven't setup one and I don't need to in order to create a precise model.

I have a hard time envisioning ANY project not being surveyed during the design phase. The day that you want to bring down the thunder on your narcisstic boards, is the day that you start telling contractors that they "have" to do anything that affects their bottom line.

"Furthermore the licensing boards have little or NO authority to stop persons from offering or performing model creation, and no licensing boards police unlicensed activity."

That is not true. Please read the attached pdf. The Machine control company was ordered to "cease and desist" (though the Board doesn't follow up like they say they will).

Partial letter

If Civil Engineers realized they produce an information product, not a traditional paper plan cooked up for permit purposes, that is the day they will probably do their designs electronically in a format useful to contractors.

The paper format is a product useful to contractors back when they didn't use electronic means to know how to shape the earth.

This would require that Civil Engineers get out of the office and actually participate in building the project like my Dad did.

"and no licensing boards police unlicensed activity."

I know this isn't true in Engineering and Surveying in NC and I hope the medical licensing boards go after unlicensed doctors in all States.

It is regulated in WV as well. This falls under the definition of surveying here.

"If Civil Engineers realized they produce an information product, not a traditional paper plan cooked up for permit purposes, that is the day they will probably do their designs electronically in a format useful to contractors."

I believe most Engineers are only paid to produce the 2D paper drawings. If they were smart, they would design in 3D and reap the rewards in the 3D modeling arena.

> "and no licensing boards police unlicensed activity."

CA also has the legal means to pursue unlicensed activity. In recent years its budgetary problems have made this a low-priority function, but it still happens.

> > "and no licensing boards police unlicensed activity."
>
> CA also has the legal means to pursue unlicensed activity. In recent years its budgetary problems have made this a low-priority function, but it still happens.

LMFAO.... Enforcement is not policing. There are NO surveying cops in NC or CA... Keep dreaming, someone has to turn you in. The board is not actively policing for unlicensed surveyors or engineers.

"boards have little or NO authority to stop persons from offering or performing model creation"

LMFAO- yes they do.

.... I wonder how many letters the NC board wrote to Bock and Clark?

who do you think should be doing the "allowing", and how do they get that authority?