As someone once said, "don't judge a book by its cover".
I do not know 100% of the story.
Calling the individual to get his side of the story would be helpful. Could you please call him, and ask him directly and report back and share full story.
Interesting thread.
"Calling the individual to get his side of the story would be helpful. Could you please call him, and ask him directly and report back and share the full story."
I tried 3 times to contact this guy, no luck.
There is only one side of the story, bad bad surveying and now the owner is suffering.
I would hate to be in his shoes right now.
I am not the brightest bulb in the house, but.............. bright enough to smell something that stinks.
This firm did many survey's around here during the downturn, it was not a brother in law thing one time thing.
Randy
Be cautious, gentlemen
Making a profit is all about keeping busy and controlling expenses.
Not having expense of an office in the middle of town and loans for equipment and any other operational costs cuts a lot off the budget.
I've had competitors tell me that they would starve me out by doing the work for less. Problem is that they are starving themselves more than they are starving me and if they don't realize it soon enough, they have to let people go.
When a company lowers prices to get jobs, they are also buying cheaper tools, cutting corners and hurrying their employees and placing pressure on everyone. They pay lower wages and give less benefits.
It is a trickle down effect. Where does it stop. Not at the owners pocket you can guarantee.
The phrase "I don't drive a Cadillac because a Chevy/Ford goes just as far" means that I can do just as much for less.
It does not have to mean that I can't afford a Cadillac or a Chevy or a Ford because I don't make enough money.
I've worked for some really cheap b@$!@^&$ that believed in quantity over quality and believe me, there ain't no party going on, ever.
Little birds don't leave the nest until they stop cheeping and learn to fly.
B-)
...maybe the boss wanted his three bozos out of town for a meet & greet with a big client at his office! 😉
Anyway, if I understand correctly, the facts obtained about this case are obtained from the owner, a probably disgruntled gentleman. If so, I am a little reluctant at making a judgment on this entire story, it could be very bias.
And let's face it, if this guy keeps allocating so much resources for so little revenues, you don't have to worry: he won't be around long and you will be picking up more clean up jobs.
> Some of you misunderstand the situation.
>
> This was a 3 man crews in a new ford crew cab with the company name all over it.
>
> The owner took several pictures.
>
> 4 hour round trip, 3 man crew in a new truck, the owner said that this crew was stumbling around for 5 hours.
>
> Do the math, 9 hours, 3 crew members, fuel, then the office time, etc, etc. 200 bucks!!!!!!!
>
If I'm reading this right, these 3 guys are either working for free (minimum wage wouldn't cover the salary-- NY minimum wage= 7.25 x 3 x 9= $197.50) 200-197.50= 2.50, so he's got $2.50 left for 1/4 gallon of gas and tolls.
Unless it's some kind of laundering scheme I find it pretty hard to believe. Like someone else said, if he keeps that up for much longer Darwin's theory of natural selection will prevail.
I encountered a similar situation a few years back. A two-man crew made two 150 mile roundtrip journeys to breakdown a section and establish a tract in one quarter section with one corner of the tract being the center corner. I had quoted a price around $2K with the hope I hadn't underestimated how to solve some known problems. They did it for roughly $300. In 2012 I had a job in a different quarter of that same section. I rejected their center corner based on information I'm sure they didn't spend six hours researching, including road records for a road laid out to be centered on the east-west quarter section line in the 1870's. Their description for the tract in the southwest quarter of the section commenced at the north quarter corner and then ran to their center corner as the point of beginning. They neither found nor set the west quarter corner which was needed both to properly evaluate the center corner position and to determine the bearing of the north line of their tract.
What if you are a High-Baller?
just because you could not do it at their prices does not mean they could not do it at their prices!
there will always be someone who will do it better than you and at a lower cost.
Leica charges premium prices, then Topcon came along with products that could do same job at lower prices. Now you have
Chc, Foif, South etc that sells for 1/2of topcon prices!
What if you are a High-Baller?
I can set an instrument up on a point in 15 seconds. I have done it thousands of times. Solid,centered, level, and waiting on a backsight, all in a whole fifteen seconds. I have aregued and argued with other guys that take their time (10 minutes or more) to set up. They can't get it wrapped around their mind how I can do something that they take their time , and take pride in, just as good as they do in such a short time. Even when they see it they don't believe it, they think "something "must not be right, even though its the exact same set up with the exact same result. Time is money boys. That's why I make the big bucks. You know the saying, fast, accurate, or cheap? Well I am fast and accurate. Get that mentality and soon you are showing your clients the value in your services. If you do 3 times what the slow cheap guy does, people notice, well, because time is money.
What if you are a High-Baller?
> Chc, Foif, South etc that sells for 1/2of topcon prices!
Are you comparing this second rate knockoff garbage with Leica and Topcon?
What if you are a High-Baller?
Not impressed - Chuck Norris does it in 12! :bye:
What if you are a High-Baller?
> I can set an instrument up on a point in 15 seconds. I have done it thousands of times. Solid,centered, level, and waiting on a backsight, all in a whole fifteen seconds. I have aregued and argued with other guys that take their time (10 minutes or more) to set up. They can't get it wrapped around their mind how I can do something that they take their time , and take pride in, just as good as they do in such a short time. Even when they see it they don't believe it, they think "something "must not be right, even though its the exact same set up with the exact same result. Time is money boys. That's why I make the big bucks. You know the saying, fast, accurate, or cheap? Well I am fast and accurate. Get that mentality and soon you are showing your clients the value in your services. If you do 3 times what the slow cheap guy does, people notice, well, because time is money.
Roadie, that is called having a high "effective rate" just because two people look similar and breathe air don't mean they work the same.
One mans 8 hour day is another mans 3 hour day
When just managing time and leaving out the effective rate is a mistake many managers make.
What if you are a High-Baller?
There are times when a high-baller is definitely the way to go. Other times a less expensive alternative will produce identical results. But, a true lowballer is someone who cheats the client by producing at a level far below any acceptable standard.
Just last week I was having a similar discussion but on a very different subject. In that case, I was promoting the high-baller. The topic was hiring someone else to cut your agricultural crops. The norm across the major wheat-producing area from central Texas northward across Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota and southern Canada is for the landowner to hire a custom cutter rather than attempting to harvest the crop with his own equipment. Most custom cutters have new combines every year. Their combines, grain-hauling trucks and support vehicles are kept in top shape. All of their employees work together like a professional sports team. They have replacement parts, belts, lubricants, tools, etc. on hand at all times. Their mechanics know how to make a repair with minimum downtime. Each employee is highly skilled. The result is that when they arrive on-site at a specific landowners operation they give it their full attention for the day or two or week that it takes a fleet of combines to cover the hundreds or thousands of acres to be harvested. The grain is hauled to the elevator and everything is documented. The landowner makes a single payment and the entire crew moves to the next site and hits it with identical vigor. The landowner does not need to invest a million dollars or more in a few combines, trucks and available operators for a few days of actual operation once per year.
Another alternative is to try to get someone local to harvest for you once they are done with their own crop and those of anyone in line ahead of you. The equipment is generally far from new and much more prone to long term breakdowns. The cutter is simply trying to make some money to justify owning equipment instead of hiring the nomadic custom cutters for his own crop. It may be 10 to 15 years before he can justify buying new equipment.
So, in this case, where large acreages are involved, the high-baller is the best way to go in most years. Those of us with small acreages cannot attract those crews to our farms as there is much time wasted in loading and unloading, reassembling the heads onto the main combine units and such. That non-productive time happens once for each client. Better to run over several thousand acres than a couple hundred acres before doing it again. Therefore, our only options are to do it ourselves or hire the local guy justifying the expense of having his own machine. In most cases, the result is identical to having the large custom cutter do the job. The exception comes in a year when abnormal rain or hail conditions cripple harvest. The older equipment with the more frequent breakdowns can result in a fragmented harvest over many days. Meanwhile the market price for the crop may be falling.
Good gawd. I had to hire a rotor rooter service to unplug my mother's drains around Christmas time. Half and hours worth of work + half an hours drive time = $239. His equipment consist of a full size van, one man, a rotor rooter machine and other plumbing tools. His investment is not nearly as close to a properly equipped surveyor.
There are low ballers around here too, bragging about doing 9 lot surveys a day for dirt. I can't imagine using my stamp 9 times a day with the skimpy amount of info they collect.
Ah you're just a big company with too much overhead.
Isn't that a refrain we hear to often about when someone justifies their fees?
heh... Yeah right.
Right now, I'm working on a bridge project scheduled to start in about a month with a recent new hire who used to work for one of these mortgage survey mill companies. You know the type. He was bragging about how they did 9 drive by...errr...surveys a day. One set up. Maybe backsite one corner in the rear, use the c&g for line and tie in a couple of house corners. Fudge in the 4th corner. Pack it up and off to their next victim's site. Oh, yeah. Their clients liked their surveys because they were good...
I can't imagine it. Maybe they had 3-4 crews. 27 surveys a day minimum. That LS is stamping 27 plats a day for $2-300 a stamp drawn up with crap data. Is it just me? I just can't seem to grasp the concept here.
Well, he was taught well.:whistle: I had him tie the main BM to his level circuit. So what he did was used the digital level manually because it's too slow to hook up the data collector otherwise, backsited the BM and turned into his circuit. Done. Ummmm..... Are you kidding me?? No you're not. Prove it 'cause you're going to need it when poop hits the fan later on. This is a $50 million bridge project. There's plenty of fat built in the budget so go back out there and close your loop. I'm sure his last place of employment wouldn't of wanted him to waste time to do it right.
What if you are a High-Baller?
better look at those topcons and see where they are being made.
just because it is not made in germany, switzerland or japan, it does not mean it is a lemon.
most of these chinese companies assemble the high end products.
What if you are a High-Baller?
> better look at those topcons and see where they are being made.
> just because it is not made in germany, switzerland or japan, it does not mean it is a lemon.
> most of these chinese companies assemble the high end products.
Yeah, well, that may be why it's a terrible tracking robot and it's data collection software is riddled with bugs. I wonder how may operators don't know about TopSURV's rod height bust problem. Just think of all those shot's that have been taken after the rod height was changed on the dc and not being aware of a "small" little problem. Just one of many small little glitch it has.... lol!
And far as tracking? Forget it. It's faster if I just go to the next point not even worrying about if my Topcon GPT 9000A is tracking me or not because 9 out of 10 times it's lost me. Go to next shot and let it do it's painful slow search to find the prism. You get what you pay for...
What if you are a High-Baller?
> better look at those topcons and see where they are being made.
> just because it is not made in germany, switzerland or japan, it does not mean it is a lemon.
> most of these chinese companies assemble the high end products.
High End products? Are you serious? Remember who you audience is here.
Obviously your pallete is not refined enough to appreciate quality workmanship.
I tried a South instrument once which was a brand new Topcon GTS knock off. Within a day the LCD was toast, you started to see only half the numbers and by the second day the optical plummet was out subtantially, when we went to adjust it the capstan screws threads were basically worn out. I'm not talking about a used instrument, this was fresh out of the box still in plastic when it arrived. It was beyond repair and when they sent a replacement we started having more LCD issues and further mechanical issues. I finally convinced the boss to invest the proper amount and get some reasonable stuff. You wouldn't catch me dead working the garbage you're mentioning.
What if you are a High-Baller?
> > You wouldn't catch me dead working the garbage you're mentioning.
To be fair, you probably won't be using any equipment.
Plus, who really goes around trying to "catch" dead people anyhow.
What if you are a High-Baller?
yes go and buy your leica and trimble for your work. while you need 10 work to recoup your investments, us topcon users will recoup our investment in half the number of projects. so what if it does not last long? it gives me the opportunity to upgrade or try other brands while you are stuck with your premium brand.
