Line Weights on Plat= Trouble in NC

WoW!! Not a school trained drafter in the bunch. Their comments on line weights are crap and go against everything I was taught in 5 years of school training and 44 years of practice. I would refer them to the Corps of Engineers Drafting Standards 4.0. As crappy as that manual is when it comes to drafting, even it shoots down their ideas.
The surveyor should indeed show the line he thinks is correct in a heavier lineweight, while clearly showing the other "boundary line" with appropriate notations and measurements.
When I was in college I was studying to become a civil engineer, so I know how many hours of drafting the average P.E. has under his/her belt. They can design like crazy, but they are not drafters. The same is true for most surveyors. That is what that board is composed of and I wouls argue that none on that board are qualified to make such a drafting call.
Consult a school trained cartographer with a survey specialty if you want the correct answer. I doubt if any of those guys know such a person. Well, obviously not, considering their statements.
They say to do this for clarity. Equal line weights have NEVER been used for clarity. That's why a real drafter is trained to use various line weights.(Hell, back in the day, we were taught to use various lead types to make things stand out and "look right". Today's engineer, and most field guys copuld not even name 3 lead types and tell you when to use them. It's a dying art in most areas.)
JABR!! (Just another bunch of rookies).

I've never been completely satisfied with my own lineweights. If you have any links to survey/civil related weights, I'd appreciate them.

I wish my State Board would send me something so foolish. I relish the opportunity to tastefully and professionally develop a respectful manner in which to say, "Bite me."

Usually on a drawing I show my subject property line as a heavier weighted line for clarity. I probably wouldn't show a conflicting or overlapping 'line' in the same weight; not because of any title issues, but for distinction.

I suppose the next step is for State Board's to adopt some sort of CAD standards...:poop:

Just amazing. It would look like survey boards everywhere are made up of the same kind of members; company big shots who have not worked in the field or managed an office project in years! They have seemingly forgot how it is really done so they get wrapped up in the 'administration' of everything having long forgot the real work ramifications of their decisions.

The same problem exists in Florida.

> The surveyor should indeed show the line he thinks is correct in a heavier lineweight, while clearly showing the other "boundary line" with appropriate notations and measurements.

You are correct. The surveyor determines the property boundary line between two parcels. He prepares a graphic map depicting his determination. If there are conflicting lines (and there often is... even a fence can be thought of as a conflicting line) then they also should be shown, but much less prominently. This should be as basic as ABC 123 to the surveying profession. But, it's not. That's a problem.

> > > When I was in college I was studying to become a civil engineer, so I know how many hours of drafting the average P.E. has under his/her belt. They can design like crazy, but they are not drafters. The same is true for most surveyors. That is what that board is composed of and I wouls argue that none on that board are qualified to make such a drafting call.
>

Very true about the cluelessness about graphical aesthetics that pervades the engineering and surveying industries today. And yes, the board may not be qualified, but they are authorized.

> > Consult a school trained cartographer with a survey specialty if you want the correct answer. I doubt if any of those guys know such a person. Well, obviously not, considering their statements.
>

I am such a person. Just letting it be known by what credentials I speak from.

> > That's why a real drafter is trained to use various line weights. --( It's a dying art in most areas.)

Dead.

Stephen Calder

Yes they have really stirred up everyone . please read the third paragraph , tell me what you think they are saying.

This is not about line weights about us providing our professional opinion on the outcome of an overlap on our maps.

Given that two lawyers are referenced in the first paragraph as having input, it sounds like they want to make sure that lawyers are not cut out of the process of resolving boundary problems. In other words, if you come across a junior/senior overlap, you are apparently supposed to tell the client to call their lawyer and get this resolved by agreement, arbitration, or court action, before you, as the surveyor, can do the technical work of drawing a darker line on the paper that represents a boundary.

Perhaps a requirement that all legal descriptions written by lawyers be approved by a surveyor is in order.

Ranger, what you stated is the exact problem I have with this explanation. I feel like the BOR has the lawyers closer to heart than the surveyors. I guess we dont have to worry about making any tuff decisions anymore, just show everything as the same line weight and let the lawyers settle it.

DJames, if we do as the BOR says, what would be the best way to show the area of the parcel? Or not show one til the overlap is settled?

> Given that two lawyers are referenced in the first paragraph as having input, it sounds like they want to make sure that lawyers are not cut out of the process of resolving boundary problems. In other words, if you come across a junior/senior overlap, you are apparently supposed to tell the client to call their lawyer and get this resolved by agreement, arbitration, or court action, before you, as the surveyor, can do the technical work of drawing a darker line on the paper that represents a boundary.
>
> Perhaps a requirement that all legal descriptions written by lawyers be approved by a surveyor is in order.

This has nothing whatever to do with our board trying to protect lawyers.

John Logsdon (attorney at law) is and was first a PLS. He was at that meeting as the representative of and past president of our local chapter of the North Carolina Surveyors Society.

David Tuttle (attorney at law) is the staff attorney for the board. There were no outside lawyers at the meeting nor to my knowledge has any of the parties had any reason to consult outside attorneys.

No time just this moment to discuss further. Will be back later with more details.

Larry P

A few years back the NC Board determined only Engineering. & Surveying firms can create 3d models for machine control but they have yet to set any standards or even test for competency in 3d modeling.

Typical land surveyor doctrine has been that land surveyors can determine ownership of an overlap through the determination of who is senior but the land surveyor can't determination of the ownership of a gap.

Now it appears the NC board is saying you can't determine ownership of overlaps and gaps.

They do have a point. Suppose there is a physical boundary such as a CMU wall on the Junior boundary line; that could be the established boundary line and the senior owner could be out of luck.

The way I see their decree ; is if there is a boundary overlap, as the Surveyor you either determine its the boundary period or you show the lines of the overlap it must be the same weight, since there is a Title issue in play . .

I think overlaps "are caused by surveyors and bad legal descriptions" and when property is transfered by both parties in respect to the overlap its the Cleint ,Attorney or Courts job to resolve the overlap .

I think their statement on Senior rights is saying either determine by senior rights that the line is in fact the line do not show the junior line as a overlap. Rightly so as one cannot transfer the property of another and it is in the Surveyors duty and rule of boundary construction to make this determination (our anchor to all surveys in the Colonial States).

But the Board contends that if the line is a heavy line on the survey we are being the owners advocate I dont think thats true .The heavy line is showing the owners Boundary as the facts show . Its still the courts decision as to the ownership .

I think the board is confusing the facts that our maps do not show ownership, in fact they show the the Professional Surveyors opinion as to location of the Boundary line.

So my new note on the survey will be
" this map represents the location of the subject boundary as determined by the Professional Land Surveyors opinion and may not represent the location of the owners Title , this must be determined by the Courts, Attorney or Client agreement " . o.O

show both areas.

Property owners can establish a boundary between their properties and the legal fiction is no transfer has taken place although the established boundary does not exactly match the legal descriptions.

The Land Surveyor is the only professional qualified to locate physical evidence in light of the Deeds and other evidence. I haven't seen any Judges out there surveying boundaries in my travels, they expect me to do it.

Property boundaries must be determined by a land surveyor, I don't care what anyone says. We can make all the disclaimers we want, all the lawyers, including the ones with a background in surveying, can say whatever they want, and everyone else can say what they want. But there is a simple fact. The primary reason we are (professionally) ever out on a job is to determine the property lines. The client wants to know where they can build to, where they can fence to, if their house is on the property, if it is within the required setback. We absolutely must render a professional opinion as to where their property line is. If we do it wrong, we will be held with our feet to the fire and everyone one of the above "para-surveyors" knows dang well that the first person they will blame is the surveyor if the line is depicted in the wrong place.

Yes, I will always argue that only courts (and landowners) can decide where property lines are, I will throw in with defending the surveyor that his opinion is only an educated opinion, but let's not lose sight of what we are out there for.

Are you going to tell the client, who wants to know where to build a fence to: "Well, you could build it to this line, or you could build it to that line....this one is where the deed calls go, that one is where the fence is, this one over here is where your neighbor's description calls to, and that other one is where the property monuments are set, but they are "monuments" not property "corners".

No, you are going to go over his plat with him and you are going to mark a line 'heavier' and tell him that is the boundary of his property (in your professional opinion). That is what he hired you to do. That is the stance you will have to defend if you are called into court, that is the property line according to your plat. You should mark it heavier, and show it as you are calling it. It's more than asthetics; it's your document.

That's what I think anyway.

Go to the following link

NC Sample Plat

This shows the example plat that the board produced as an example of a plat that meets NC standards. Notice that the plat shows both an overlap and a gappage. Notice that the gap & overlap is depicted using different line weights. This example plat seems to contradict the board's own policy. I am totally confused as to how I am supposed to map overlaps/gappage. Am I supposed to use the example plat as a guide, or the policy letter.

Adamsurveyor's opinion is closest to my own.

Donnie Stallings "Confused in Raleigh"

the example clearly show on line heavier than the other in both the gore and overlap situations. Color me confused.

Rick